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Empire of the Sun» Forums » Rules

Subject: HQ activation and supply rss

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Stephen Tam
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Does the activating HQ in an offensive have to be in supply (traceable to an ultimate supply source)?

I know that the units being activated do, but can be supplied by another HQ that can trace to an ultimate supply source.
 
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John Amenta

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usmint99 wrote:
Does the activating HQ in an offensive have to be in supply (traceable to an ultimate supply source)?

I know that the units being activated do, but can be supplied by another HQ that can trace to an ultimate supply source.
For the reaction player to activate an HQ for reaction, rule 7.26 is clear: "reaction player may designate one (and only one) in-supply HQ".

Oddly enough though, that same clarity is not present for the actual Offensive HQ being activated i.e. such as in rule 7.21.

So ... good question.

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John Steidl
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HQs must be in supply to activate units, either offensively or in reaction. I suppose you could create a situation where the HQ you wanted to use was not in supply, but the units you wanted to activate with it were. However I don't think I've ever seen that in a game.

The situation of a unit being activated and supplied by different sources is not unusual in the CBI where you might have activation coming from SEAC and supply from Kunming via open Hump.
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Francisco Colmenares
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It's also not unusual in New Guinea and the Solomons, if you're trying to use ANZAC to activate forces. That path can cross land masses easily enough but maybe the supply route has to go around it by sea and ends up being too long to supply the units so Central Pacific or SW Pacific does it.

I find it tends to happen more often if you have an HQ in Darwin and you're trying to reach and activate stuff in Eastern New Guina and the Solomons.
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Drake Coker
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jsteidl wrote:
HQs must be in supply to activate units, either offensively or in reaction.
Can you site a rule, John? I thought the same, but when I went to look up a reference for the OP, I couldn't find it for the Offensive HQ.

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John Steidl
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Olvenskol wrote:
jsteidl wrote:
HQs must be in supply to activate units, either offensively or in reaction.
Can you site a rule, John? I thought the same, but when I went to look up a reference for the OP, I couldn't find it for the Offensive HQ.
Not offhand, but it's definitely the case. If it's not in there, then we missed it on the rules edit!
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Francisco Colmenares
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jsteidl wrote:
Olvenskol wrote:
jsteidl wrote:
HQs must be in supply to activate units, either offensively or in reaction.
Can you site a rule, John? I thought the same, but when I went to look up a reference for the OP, I couldn't find it for the Offensive HQ.
Not offhand, but it's definitely the case. If it's not in there, then we missed it on the rules edit!
We missed it in the rules edit. Phone Mark Herman and tell him to add it to the list next to "Units with no-replacement dots can't come back if they are removed from the map for whatever reason".
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Ferro Ostil
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I don't see an explicit statement that HQ's have to be in supply in order to be activated in the rules. It belongs in 7.21, I think.

In practice it would rarely come up because HQs are usually OOS because they are under an unneutralized AZOI, which would block activation traces (over water). It could matter for land traces, for example, when an OOS Allied HQ in Port Moresby under an unneutralized Japanese AZOI projected from Gili-Gili activates a ground unit in Lae. Except that the unit in Lae would have to be in supply from a different HQ (possible from C Pac in Oahu, if no intervening JP AZOIs block/extend the supply trace).

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Francisco Colmenares
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The closest thing is the Card General Adachi: it specifically states that the HQ and units don't have to be in supply to be activated. So it seems to imply that normally, the HQ has to be in supply.
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Mark Herman
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colmenarez wrote:
jsteidl wrote:
Olvenskol wrote:
jsteidl wrote:
HQs must be in supply to activate units, either offensively or in reaction.
Can you site a rule, John? I thought the same, but when I went to look up a reference for the OP, I couldn't find it for the Offensive HQ.
Not offhand, but it's definitely the case. If it's not in there, then we missed it on the rules edit!
We missed it in the rules edit. Phone Mark Herman and tell him to add it to the list next to "Units with no-replacement dots can't come back if they are removed from the map for whatever reason".
Here is where the rules state it as far as I can see, obviously you all disagree.

6.21 first sentence

6.3 Second sentence. How can a unit that needs to be in supply to be activated, which requires an in supply HQ to be in supply require any more words.

I hope that helps,

Mark
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John Amenta

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MarkHerman wrote:


Here is where the rules state it as far as I can see, obviously you all disagree.

6.21 first sentence

6.3 Second sentence. How can a unit that needs to be in supply to be activated, which requires an in supply HQ to be in supply require any more words.

I hope that helps,

Mark
Well this is the "Rules" section of the forum, so I guess for some of us who don't have a law degree but still find rule lawyering an interesting pastime .... shake

I think the confusion may come is that the rules are sometimes flexible on command tracing from an HQ (for example, for attrition, the rules specifically state the HQ does not have to be in supply).

The first sentence of 6.2 reads:
"Both HQs and units must trace supply lines to be in supply."

Note that this is a good sentence but does not have any bearing on the OP question i.e. is it necessary for an HQ to be in supply to activate units?

Now 6.3 second sentence reads:

"For a unit to be activated it must have an activation path from the HQ being used for offensive or reaction purposes, and be in supply."

Also a good sentence (although just a touch of a possible dangling proposition at end - upon first reading), but again, only states there must be an "activation path" from the HQ, there is no mention here that the HQ needs to be in supply which is the questioned posed by the OP.

Interesting enough,7.26 specifically does state an "in-supply HQ" must be used to activate reaction units.

ok. So look, my college degree was in computer science ... and I did not take any technical writing classes and didn't study laws on rules. So go easy on me if you disagree with my rules observations here. 0.0

I think the problem may be is there is a lot of subtleties to the rules and fine details (in a very fine game) so that even a single worded sentence can make a fairly significant difference in how the game is played. For example, an HQ used for reaction can react to any Battle hexes within range and "(this range cannot be blocked by any means)" ... that was a biggie when I first read it. So, it might be somewhat natural to wonder if supply state of the HQ might not be as significant a factor for a normally activating HQ than a reacting HQ.

It just rules though. Anybody searching the forums will now find this thread and see the answer to the question. But technically - strictly speaking ... rules lawyering speaking ... nowhere in the rules does it actually state that an HQ must be in supply for normal activation ....

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Te rules do say that, and I think is clear. Have a look at the rules for supply, section 6.21. It reads:

Both HQs and units must trace supply lines to
be in supply.


then further below also in the same section 6.21:

Units, by contrast, trace supply lines from an in-supply HQ to the
hex they occupy, limited by the HQ’s range.



Ergo, for a unit to be in supply it needs to trace a supply line from an in-supply HQ. You can not trace a supply line from a OOS HQ. Therefore to activate a unit you need a in-supply HQ.

(edited for clarity)
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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Nomad, its not about tracing a supply path but an activation path.
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I believe the question posted was if the activating HQ needs to be in supply or not to activate a unit, and that the rules were not clear about it. So it is about supply paths, but of course there must be an activation path.
 
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John Amenta

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mpires wrote:
I believe the question posted was if the activating HQ needs to be in supply or not to activate a unit, and that the rules were not clear about it. So it is about supply paths, but of course there must be an activation path.
Yes but I think the tricky part here is that tracing an activation path is not same as tracing a supply path (in all cases).
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well, then I am a bit lost into what IS the real question here

EDIT - reading the rule again then I understand better the remark of Dante and Francisco. A unit can be in supply via a supply path to a in supply HQ, but the same unit can be activated in an Offensive card by another HQ, via an activation path, and indeed is not clear in the rules that activation paths need to be drawn from in supply HQ, though it would be logical and Mark just made that clear now.

still learning
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Mark Herman
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We can parse words forever and I am tired. Unless a card says otherwise an HQ has to be in supply to do anything.
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John Amenta

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Stephen started it!!

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Stephen Tam
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DanteEdmundo wrote:
Stephen started it!!

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usmint99 wrote:
DanteEdmundo wrote:
Stephen started it!!

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Its morning after a good sleep. All good... I hope you have the answer you were looking for.

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Drake Coker
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It's all Chad Jensen's fault. He trained us to be very literal when reading GMT rules
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