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Subject: First game, six players, all new rss

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Dean L
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Thought we'd have five, ended up with six.

Given no-one has played before, and we're just intending to use the base game (though I have Daybreak and Pegasus if just for the plastic), is the best bet just to go 2 Cylons, 4 Humans? On account that it's hard enough for new human players anyway?

I worry the official No Symp variant might make it too tight / see the game itself kill us far too quickly. And my group would game the Sympathizer mechanic anyway.

Open to the idea of having a Cylon Leader but worried about the rules overhead (equally why mutineer is out).
 
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No sympathiser rule is very fair, I think.

Humans get an extra player, cylons get a head-start on dropping some resources.

Either 4vs2 with no sympathiser or 3vs2 and with a cylon leader, always works well.
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M. B. Downey
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4v2 straight up is fine for all new players.
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Kwijiboe
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I agree, just ignore the sympathizer card rule for now and learn the game.

The game will very likely crush you regardless of the sympathizer component.

Once you have learned the game, consider playing the game with only 5 people or add Daybreak for its Cylon Leader component. Although, I highly recommend playing the game with only 5 players.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Ditto. Just play 4 humans 2 cylons and don't worry about perceived balance. (Cylons appearing pre-sleeper vs. post-sleeper has much more influence to the game.)

I can wholeheartedly recommend Cylon Leader Motives from Daybreak after you have some games under your belt.
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Deano2099 wrote:
Thought we'd have five, ended up with six.

Given no-one has played before, and we're just intending to use the base game (though I have Daybreak and Pegasus if just for the plastic), is the best bet just to go 2 Cylons, 4 Humans? On account that it's hard enough for new human players anyway?

I worry the official No Symp variant might make it too tight / see the game itself kill us far too quickly. And my group would game the Sympathizer mechanic anyway.

Open to the idea of having a Cylon Leader but worried about the rules overhead (equally why mutineer is out).
You're supposed to game the Sympathizer, so they'd have that part right at least.

As for the game killing you too fast, the no-symp version is supposed to make the game easier, so that should make it more suitable for your tastes. The only concern is getting "whimpy" cylons where they can't ask questions, or play too nicely, turning it into a 5 vs. 1 game. However, as a first game, there was never much you could do about that anyways.
 
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B C Z
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If you're all experienced gamers (just not with BSG), I say use the Sympathizer as-is.
 
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Dean L
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ackmondual wrote:
You're supposed to game the Sympathizer, so they'd have that part right at least.
I guess in that case I'd rather just do 4vs2, but knocking the lowest resource down to red at the sleeper phase. As that's essentially what it would be.

Thanks for the responses all, I might throw in the extra card draw for revealed Cylons from the No Symp, while keeping the resources the same.

Essentially I don't often get the chance to have 5+ gamers about for something like this, so am more interested in just ensuring everyone has a fun time than exact balance.
 
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M. B. Downey
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Don't use the actual sympathizer under any circumstances, ever.
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Geoff C
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downeymb wrote:
Don't use the actual sympathizer under any circumstances, ever.
Oh pish. What an unwarranted extreme attitude.

The sympathizer isn't that bad. I'm not really a fan of how it was implemented, but its better than the alternatives imo. But I recognize that I'm likely in the minority here, ah well.
 
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Sympathiser totally ruins the roleplaying aspect.

Lets intentionally lower our own resources so one of us doesnt turn into a cylon later...
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Robert Stewart
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The problem with having a Cylon-side Sympathiser is that one player gets ambushed by a forced reveal. One of the major benefits of being a Cylon is getting to time your reveal - there are a lot of stories people tell about when a Cylon revealed themselves unexpectedly - either by revealing their card, or by sabotaging the humans at a crucial moment. Having the game randomly zap you into a revealed Cylon takes that moment away from you.

And, yeah, there's the perverse incentive to sabotage a resource to keep the Sympathiser human.
 
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Geoff C
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I'm well aware of its shortcomings believe me, that's why I experimented with a secret sympathizer. IMO, a sympathizer is still better than a mutineer or leader.

Either way, I wouldn't rule it out completely. It is an option that the cylons can play around (seeing which resource is being pushed down) and the humans get a guaranteed partner out of it (albeit in the brig).
 
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M. B. Downey
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Talonz wrote:
The sympathizer isn't that bad. I'm not really a fan of how it was implemented, but its better than the alternatives imo. But I recognize that I'm likely in the minority here, ah well.
To each his own. For me, the no sympathizer variant or a Daybreak Cylon Leader are so vastly superior to the RAW Sympathizer that there's no question about what to play.

A "secret sympathizer" sounds interesting, but just about anything's an improvement over the RAW sympathizer.
 
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Orion Harrison
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If memory serves, adding in almost any cylon leader necessitates adding in a treachery deck, and if you use the Daybreak treachery deck, you also need to use the Mutiny deck, and at that point, you might as well just use the Mutineer as a 6-player balance mechanic instead of the cylon leader. You'd also want/need to add in the additional skill cards to balance out treachery, which means adding in additional expansion mechanics (Assault Raptors from Daybreak or Movement abilities from Pegasus).

Long story short, the expansion components aren't as easy to separate as you or I would like them to be.
 
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Daybreak Cylon leader is the best even-numbered solution. After that, I like mutineer, but I could see an argument for the lowering-the-resources variant.

The mutineer, sympathizer, sympathetic Cylon, and... (was there not one in Exodus?) all try to do the same thing. They turn a normal human into a human with a disadvantage. That makes sense from a balance perspective, but the sympathizer especially just takes things away from the player. It's like "sorry, but for game balance reasons, you don't get to be as cool as your friends".

The mutineer gives more hassle to one player, but at least it doesn't take anything away from them. Well, it takes away their ability to do X because instead they must deal with mutiny, but at least they get interesting choices to make, and can hopefully count on XO's (making it more something the GROUP must deal with than something the individual must deal with).

I like mutineer over lowering the resources because, while that may fix things from a balance perspective, it's kind of flat and uninteresting.
 
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Geoff C
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downeymb wrote:


A "secret sympathizer" sounds interesting, but just about anything's an improvement over the RAW sympathizer.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1313401/sneaky-sympathizer
 
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M. B. Downey
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Talonz wrote:
So with 6 players, you essentially have a cylon that cannot reveal who knows his loyalty from the beginning. And you balance this out by allowing only the first cylon to reveal a super crisis.

It might encourage less early reveals, but it hardly seems balanced. Seems far too pro-cylon to me. Unless I am not getting what your variant means.
 
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Geoff C
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He has to be VERY careful, as he doesn't have access to any cylon abilities. He can only underplay/spike skill checks, but has to very subtle about it, as being brigged is nearly game over for him.

It is somewhat procylon, and to a certain degree thats the point. It makes a good challenge for experienced players out of an almost extinct mechanism.
 
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rmsgrey wrote:
The problem with having a Cylon-side Sympathiser is that one player gets ambushed by a forced reveal. One of the major benefits of being a Cylon is getting to time your reveal - there are a lot of stories people tell about when a Cylon revealed themselves unexpectedly - either by revealing their card, or by sabotaging the humans at a crucial moment. Having the game randomly zap you into a revealed Cylon takes that moment away from you.
FWIW, you really don't have much control of when you'd like to reveal in a 6p game anyways. I sure wouldn't count on it.
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M. B. Downey
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Talonz wrote:
He can only underplay/spike skill checks, but has to very subtle about it, as being brigged is nearly game over for him.
Completely disagree on that, but this is getting way off topic.
 
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Robert Stewart
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ackmondual wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
The problem with having a Cylon-side Sympathiser is that one player gets ambushed by a forced reveal. One of the major benefits of being a Cylon is getting to time your reveal - there are a lot of stories people tell about when a Cylon revealed themselves unexpectedly - either by revealing their card, or by sabotaging the humans at a crucial moment. Having the game randomly zap you into a revealed Cylon takes that moment away from you.
FWIW, you really don't have much control of when you'd like to reveal in a 6p game anyways. I sure wouldn't count on it.
You'll usually have 2-3 turns post-Sleeper, and can choose whether to reveal, sabotage, or maintain cover each time. You may also get XOs, and if you're a title-holder, you have additional choices there. You also keep control over your OPG rather than losing it because you got dealt the wrong card.

Most importantly, while you can't pick a perfect moment at which to reveal, you do repeatedly get the choice between revealing now or later, making it your choice to reveal rather than something that's done to you.

Okay, executions and spot Loyalty checks can also tip your hand, but executions are player-driven and when someone peeks at your Cylon Loyalty, it becomes your word against theirs - there's still room for play there.
 
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Biodiesel
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And you can always keep a "Change of Plans" ready, in case they try to execute you.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
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I have used Change of Plans to keep puny humans from getting out of the brig.

(edit: ah, but this is the base game forum..)
 
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Yes, another favorite use of mine. But I still like making a soft reveal, and then watch the humans waste a ton skill cards to throw me in the brig, only to have me drop CoP. heh heh!
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