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Subject: 2 vampire encounters maturing on same location question. rss

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Markococo
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I was wondering about this.

Am new to the game and thought maturing two vampires at once from one location would be a good hit for Dracula, getting that influence up by 7 in one go!!

However...

I think you have to mature them one at a time, yes?

And after reading the cards it seems that once one of them has matured, the hideout is cleared and so the second one would not take effect.

Have I read that correctly?

Thanks

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Roger Edwards
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Yes, that is correct. You move all the hideouts on one, then you mature the card that has gone off of the end. If it's a vampire you get nice influence points, but then have to clear out hideouts on spaces 4, 5 and 6. Any vampires on those spaces will be lost.

This mechanism is there, presumably, to stop Dracula getting a huge haul of influence in very few turns. As Dracula you have a dilemma – do I wait four more turns before putting another vampire down, or do I put it down in case the hunters kill the first one before it matures?

Edit: rereading your post, I think if you have two vampires on the same location and it goes off the track they will BOTH mature. It's other hideouts you clear out, not this one. … no, rereading the card I see that you are right. The card says, 'then clear this hideout'. That suggests anything else in the hideout will be gone and thus not scored.
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Zach Mckinney
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with a rumor token you can get 7 with one vampire easy
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Markococo
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cloud64 wrote:
… no, rereading the card I see that you are right. The card says, 'then clear this hideout'. That suggests anything else in the hideout will be gone and thus not scored.
Yeah, that's what I thought too. Thanks for the input. Glad to see I got it right but Dracula was not happy about wasting that 'new vampire'. angry
 
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Until reading this thread I thought it was clear you would always deal with all the matured effects. But the instructions on the matured vampire cards telling you to clear the hideouts seem to muddy the waters a bit.

In isolation, the RR quote below seems clear:
You "resolve the matured effect on any number of encounter cards" that you wish. Then "all encounter cards from the matured encounter are discarded". And only then do you clear the hideout, "after resolving all matured effects".

Rules Reference, page 10 wrote:
Maturing
When a hideout slides off the sixth space of the trail, Dracula must
either mature that hideout or convert it to a lair.

† When Dracula matures a hideout that slid off the sixth space
of the trail, he reveals and resolves the matured effect on any
number of encounter cards that are in that matured hideout.
Then, all encounter cards from the matured encounter are
discarded.

† After resolving all matured effects, Dracula clears the hideout.
He returns any damage tokens in that hideout to the token
pool, removes any rumor tokens in that hideout from the game,
and returns any location or power card in the hideout to the
location deck
So the matured effect on all those cards is sort of "pending" until they're all resolved? Or can they really be interrupted by one of the cards saying to clear the hideout?

Maybe that bit of text on the card is supposed to just be a reminder? The main intent is to ensure you clear spaces 4-6 (for a matured vampire), but the hideout that has just slid off the board... obviously that's leaving play once this step is over with anyway. So mentioning it seems to have just caused confusion?

EDIT: But clearing 4-6 is surely aimed at preventing multiple vampires maturing too quickly, so I can see it the other way too... maybe it does mean to interrupt & stop resolving the other matured effects! Which raises the question of which order to resolve them in?
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Joel Stair
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So if there are Six hideout on the track and the six one is going to Mature then say you have a Vampire it Matures and because it is on the Six you CLEAR it out and five and four

You don't move them first.


NOTHING TO SEE HERE
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brian
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dstair2002 wrote:
So if there are Six hideout on the track and the six one is going to Mature then say you have a Vampire it Matures and because it is on the Six you CLEAR it out and five and four

You don't move them first.
This is incorrect. You slide them all first. Then when the 6th falls off, you mature it. At that point Space 1 will be empty (you haven't placed the current location yet) and by Maturing the Vampire, spaces 4-6 will also be cleared. Once this step is done, you will only have hideouts left on spaces 2 and 3. Then you place the current location in space 1.

I don't think that you can mature two Vampires on the same location. You can have two but when you resolve encounters, they are in order. So you can choose which of the 2 Vampires to mature (presumably the one with more influence if there is one). The Vampire tells you to clear that hideout and the 4th, 5th, and 6th (at least that is what the New Vampire says as it is the only card I could find online since my game is not with me). By clearing out this hideout (the one that slid off), you would discard any remaining encounters - including Vampires.
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Yeah...

RR says you mature them as the hideout slides off the 6th space (so there are 6 more-recent hideouts behind them, including the one just being placed).

And then the vampire cards say to clear out this hideout AND the hideouts on 4,5,6. Which would agree with the RR above.

But LtP seems to indicate the 6th hideout is matured "on it's space", which could conflict with those... except it mentions there already being 6 hideouts when the sliding happens, so there would actually be 6 behind it (including the latest one).

Rules Reference, page 10 wrote:
Maturing
When a hideout slides off the sixth space of the trail, Dracula must
either mature that hideout or convert it to a lair.
Learn to Play, page 11 wrote:
Maturing Encounters
During the Dracula phase, all hideouts on the trail slide to
create space for Dracula to place a new card. If there are six
hideouts on the trail when this happens, the hideout on the sixth
space is matured
.
New Vampire card wrote:
Matured Effect
Reveal this location card.
Advance the influence track by 3.
Then clear this hideout and the hideouts on the fourth, fifth, and sixth spaces of the trail
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
I don't think that you can mature two Vampires on the same location. You can have two but when you resolve encounters, they are in order. So you can choose which of the 2 Vampires to mature (presumably the one with more influence if there is one). The Vampire tells you to clear that hideout and the 4th, 5th, and 6th (at least that is what the New Vampire says as it is the only card I could find online since my game is not with me). By clearing out this hideout (the one that slid off), you would discard any remaining encounters - including Vampires.
Yeah, I think I agree with that...
Still not 100% on it, but I guess it makes the most sense, given that the designers intent seems to be to prevent multiple vampires maturing too close together. And I don't see why would it mention clearing out the current hideout, AS WELL AS 4,5,6 otherwise.
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brian
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Pudsy wrote:
But LtP seems to indicate the 6th hideout is matured "on it's space", which could conflict with those... except it mentions there already being 6 hideouts when the sliding happens, so there would actually be 6 behind it (including the latest one).
]

In a perfect world, the LTP is supposed to be the lowest tier on the rules hierarchy. It is also written a bit more lax as if you are just giving overviews. The RRG is supposed to take precedence (which unfortunately muddies the water with this game). But ultimately the cards override everything. Since both the RRG and cards are more specific, I think that is correct.

This is what I had from FFG that at least confirms ALL hideouts sliding, then maturing happens, and finally the new location is placed:

Quote:
As described on page 7 under “Dracula Phase,” first all hideouts are moved one space to the right which may result a hideout maturing. Then, Dracula chooses a location. This can result in Dracula moving to the location that was on the sixth space of the trail at the start of the Dracula phase.
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Joel Stair
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You are correct Ive played it both ways because the first time there was some confusion But after reading this card you do clear the card that fell off and then 6,5,4, thats brutal for the hunters.
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brian
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dstair2002 wrote:
You are correct Ive played it both ways because the first time there was some confusion But after reading this card you do clear the card that fell off and then 6,5,4, thats brutal for the hunters.
I believe in 2nd Edition, all spaces were cleared except the current location. So it was even more brutal for the hunters but also a more extended pace for Dracula to get new vampires down.
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Joel Stair
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This is a great way to be able to double back. and it changes how I will play Vampires and other Encounters. although the last time I did play like this. But now i understand some timing issues with Encounters
 
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It may seem harsh clearing all those hideouts, but...
You could still send 2 or more vampire encounters down the track in quick succession (as insurance against one being revealed). And if one is about to mature that would clear/waste the next one, convert the first to a lair instead, to revisit later. Then simply mature the next one on the next turn.
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Ha! Just spotted this bit about rumor tokens, which actually seems to allow multiple vampires to be matured on the same location...
Learn to Play, pg 16 wrote:
Rumor Tokens
...
If Dracula matures one or more vampire encounters from a hideout that contains a rumor token, he advances the influence track by an additional three spaces (see “Maturing” on page 11).
And then (stretching things maybe) to make things worse, the RR could even be interpreted to mean the extra 3 influence applies for *each* matured vampire...
Rules Reference, pg 13 wrote:
Rumor Tokens
† If Dracula resolves the matured effect of a vampire encounter card and that hideout has a rumor token on it, the influence track is advanced by an additional three spaces.
† After a hideout is cleared, or if a lair is discarded, any rumor token on that hideout or lair is returned to the token pool.
Although it does say the rumor token is removed when the hideout is "cleared", which the first matured vampire's card would have you do anyway.

So it could simply be that the LtP is wrong to mention maturing "one or more vampire encounters" in the first place.
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Markococo
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Now I'm just confused lol

Do I mature both vampires before I clear the hideouts?

Or do I not?


 
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I really can't decide after that LtP bit.
Leaning towards not allowing two, but think it may need a ruling from FFG.
Has anyone submitted this question yet?
 
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Randal Divinski
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Mickey Stirrups wrote:
Now I'm just confused lol
Do I mature both vampires before I clear the hideouts?
Or do I not?
Agreed. We now have circumstantial evidence in both directions.

This is an extremely important issue to resolve, as the way you decide it can easily swing the game outcome.

As a mechanics issue, I think it comes down to this. At the point a 6th hideout with multiple encounters slides off, does the Dracula player:
1) resolve each encounter fully before moving on to the next; or
2) all encounters effects are "triggered" and it's just their resolution order that the player determines.

If #1, then the other vampires are lost as the hideout is cleared by the effect. If #2, the other encounters are no longer on the hideout, they are on the "effects stack" waiting to resolve.
 
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I also wonder if allowing multiple vampire encounters to mature, you could build a giant vampire-powered nuke by bouncing a hideout back & forth from trail to lair. Coupled with a rumour token, you could potentially earn all 13 points in one go! That is, assuming the hunters play nice & don't find you before then!
 
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Randal Divinski
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Pudsy wrote:
I also wonder if allowing multiple vampire encounters to mature, you could build a giant vampire-powered nuke by bouncing a hideout back & forth from trail to lair. Coupled with a rumour token, you could potentially earn all 13 points in one go! That is, assuming the hunters play nice & don't find you before then!
Let's assume for a moment that the encounter-maturing-resolution issue was resolved in favor of cashing in on multiple vampires on one location. Even then, Dracula would have to:
1) Draw the vampires into his encounter hand;
2) Place initially;
3) Use Hide and again have vampire in hand.
4) Wait for hideout to slide off (6 turns) - have vampire in hand for lair.
5) Put lair back on current location, have a vampire in hand again
6) Wait six more turns

And never have any of this interrupted by a hunter location find and search. If he can pull that off, he deserves the all-at-once victory.
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Hehe! Yeah, very unlikely, however you might go about trying it.
Would be one hell of a scrap if the hunters turned up though

Although I was partly hoping thinking along those lines would reveal some obvious exploit... and help make it clear that multiple vampires aren't intended to be matured together.
 
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randiv wrote:
Pudsy wrote:
I also wonder if allowing multiple vampire encounters to mature, you could build a giant vampire-powered nuke by bouncing a hideout back & forth from trail to lair. Coupled with a rumour token, you could potentially earn all 13 points in one go! That is, assuming the hunters play nice & don't find you before then!
Let's assume for a moment that the encounter-maturing-resolution issue was resolved in favor of cashing in on multiple vampires on won location. Even then, Dracula would have to:
1) Draw the vampires into his encounter hand;
2) Place initially;
3) Use Hide and again have vampire in hand.
4) Wait for hideout to slide off (6 turns) - have vampire in hand for lair.
5) Put lair back on current location, have a vampire in hand again
6) Wait six more turns

And never have any of this interrupted by a hunter location find and search. If he can pull that off, he deserves the all-at-once victory.
This won't actually work because
1. You don't place an encounter on your initial location
2. You can't mature an encounter on Hide and if a Vampire was on hide it couldn't be added to a Lair

That said, assuming multiple vampire matures are possible

1. Dracula draws 2 early Vampires
2. Moves to a location with his first move and places a Vampire, adds a Rumor token
3. Some other effect allows a second Vampire to the hideout with first one.
4. When that slides off at the end of the first week, matures for 12-14 influence.

Not very likely but shows that multiple maturing is too powerful
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brian
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randiv wrote:
Pudsy wrote:
I also wonder if allowing multiple vampire encounters to mature, you could build a giant vampire-powered nuke by bouncing a hideout back & forth from trail to lair. Coupled with a rumour token, you could potentially earn all 13 points in one go! That is, assuming the hunters play nice & don't find you before then!
Let's assume for a moment that the encounter-maturing-resolution issue was resolved in favor of cashing in on multiple vampires on won location. Even then, Dracula would have to:
1) Draw the vampires into his encounter hand;
2) Place initially;
3) Use Hide and again have vampire in hand.
4) Wait for hideout to slide off (6 turns) - have vampire in hand for lair.
5) Put lair back on current location, have a vampire in hand again
6) Wait six more turns

And never have any of this interrupted by a hunter location find and search. If he can pull that off, he deserves the all-at-once victory.
You can't mature encounters on Hide. But there are situations that allow you to put an encounter on the 3rd hideout. Forgot if that was an event or one of the other encounters. But with a Rumor token, it makes it a little easier.
 
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brian
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DaveD wrote:
1. Dracula draws 2 early Vampires
2. Moves to a location with his first move and places a Vampire, adds a Rumor token
3. Some other effect allows a second Vampire to the hideout with first one.
4. When that slides off at the end of the first week, matures for 12-14 influence.

Not very likely but shows that multiple maturing is too powerful
Rumor token is only a +3 total boost, not +3 per vampire. You are looking "only" 9-11 influence with this.

But still agree multiple maturing is too powerful - especially in the beginning before the trail is found.
 
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
DaveD wrote:
1. Dracula draws 2 early Vampires
2. Moves to a location with his first move and places a Vampire, adds a Rumor token
3. Some other effect allows a second Vampire to the hideout with first one.
4. When that slides off at the end of the first week, matures for 12-14 influence.

Not very likely but shows that multiple maturing is too powerful
Rumor token is only a +3 total boost, not +3 per vampire. You are looking "only" 9-11 influence with this.

But still agree multiple maturing is too powerful - especially in the beginning before the trail is found.
The reference guide says that if you mature a vampire in a hideout with a rumor token you get 3 extra influence. Both vampires would be in a hideout with a rumor token so both would get the +3 by my reading. That said both interpretations rely on being able to mature both vampires, which I sincerely hope isn't correct.
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