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Subject: Copying The Double Card on Itself rss

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Sean Quallen
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This thread is in response to a comment in this thread regarding copying a double card.

When the copy ability is used it doesn't change the nature of the ability that it's copying, it only allows you to do it twice (without stacking, in the case of the double card). Accordingly, the rule that "you can double the fighting points of 1 of the other face up fighting cards" still applies, and you cannot double the fighting points of the double card itself.

Does this seem correct? Shall we discuss?
 
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Nick Shaw
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SSJGQ wrote:
This thread is in response to a comment in this thread regarding copying a double card.

When the copy ability is used it doesn't change the nature of the ability that it's copying, it only allows you to do it twice (without stacking, in the case of the double card). Accordingly, the rule that "you can double the fighting points of 1 of the other face up fighting cards" still applies, and you cannot double the fighting points of the double card itself.

Does this seem correct? Shall we discuss?
That's certainly how I would play it. You're copying the ability (using the action again); you don't have a virtual "new" copy of the card.
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Dave
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I've always played (perhaps incorrectly) that the Copy card can double the Double card. It comes down to whether the copied double ability is "owned" by the original Double card or the Copy card. I always assumed it was "owned" by the Copy card.
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Sean Quallen
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njshaw2 wrote:
SSJGQ wrote:
This thread is in response to a comment in this thread regarding copying a double card.

When the copy ability is used it doesn't change the nature of the ability that it's copying, it only allows you to do it twice (without stacking, in the case of the double card). Accordingly, the rule that "you can double the fighting points of 1 of the other face up fighting cards" still applies, and you cannot double the fighting points of the double card itself.

Does this seem correct? Shall we discuss?
That's certainly how I would play it. You're copying the ability (using the action again); you don't have a virtual "new" copy of the card.
Yes, but copying the ability doesn't allow you to change the ability. By copying the double card itself you've changed the rule that says you must copy a different card.
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Sean Quallen
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lSweetJusticel wrote:
I've always played (perhaps incorrectly) that the Copy card can double the Double card. It comes down to whether the copied double ability is "owned" by the original Double card or the Copy card. I always assumed it was "owned" by the Copy card.
This is an interesting interpretation and I look forward to seeing what others have to say about this one. I can see where this might fall into some gray area.
 
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Juan Crespo
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njshaw2 wrote:
You're copying the ability (using the action again); you don't have a virtual "new" copy of the card.
The first part of the sentence is correct, but the second part is not. By copying the double ability, you essentially are getting another copy of the double card. The double ability clearly states that when you have more than one double you have to choose a different fighting card to double its value. This effectively prevents you from multiplying the initial double action x2.
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Juan Crespo
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SSJGQ wrote:
you cannot double the fighting points of the double card itself.

Does this seem correct? Shall we discuss?
As for this, I've used a copy card for the double ability, and doubled the fighting value of another double card. Not sure if that answers your question.
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Justin
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When you use copy, you imagine that the text from the card you are copying is on the copy card itself, and then you use it as if the copy card is the card you copied. So if you have two cards out, one Double Card and one Copy Card. The Double Card can be used to double the Copy Card, and the Copy Card can be used to double the Double Card.
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Nick Shaw
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juanma99 wrote:
njshaw2 wrote:
You're copying the ability (using the action again); you don't have a virtual "new" copy of the card.
The first part of the sentence is correct, but the second part is not. By copying the double ability, you essentially are getting another copy of the double card. The double ability clearly states that when you have more than one double you have to choose a different fighting card to double its value. This effectively prevents you from multiplying the initial double action x2.
I think you misinterpreted what I said (or I just didn't explain myself well enough).

What I was trying to get across was that you're not copying the entire card (you don't get that card's fight points added again), you only get to copy its ability.
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Radosław Michalak
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I read it that when I use a Copy on Double, now the text on my Copy card is "You can double the fighting value of 1 of the other drawn fighting cards", and from the "Copy's point of view" the original Double card is "the other card".
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Sean Quallen
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Vasher wrote:
When you use copy, you imagine that the text from the card you are copying is on the copy card itself, and then you use it as if the copy card is the card you copied. So if you have two cards out, one Double Card and one Copy Card. The Double Card can be used to double the Copy Card, and the Copy Card can be used to double the Double Card.
But wait.. that implies that you are copying the card and not just the ability. The rules say that you only get to copy the ability, and doesn't state that you get to attach that ability to the copy card. I know that's a convoluted statement, please let me know if it is not clear.

I think the real question here has turned into: Does the copied ability belong to the copy card or the original card?
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Dave
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Radziol wrote:
I read it that when I use a Copy on Double, now the text on my Copy card is "You can double the fighting value of 1 of the other drawn fighting cards", and from the "Copy's point of view" the original Double card is "the other card".
Yes! This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier, but worded more clearly.
 
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Juan Crespo
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njshaw2 wrote:
juanma99 wrote:
njshaw2 wrote:
You're copying the ability (using the action again); you don't have a virtual "new" copy of the card.
The first part of the sentence is correct, but the second part is not. By copying the double ability, you essentially are getting another copy of the double card. The double ability clearly states that when you have more than one double you have to choose a different fighting card to double its value. This effectively prevents you from multiplying the initial double action x2.
I think you misinterpreted what I said (or I just didn't explain myself well enough).

What I was trying to get across was that you're not copying the entire card (you don't get that card's fight points added again), you only get to copy its ability.
I just didn't read it in context of the OP.
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Lars Enden
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A concrete example would probably help:

Suppose we have just three cards on the table: a card that has a value of 2 and the ability "1x Double"; a card that has a value of 2 and the ability "Copy x1"; and a card with a value of 1 and no ability.

So, as a kind of shorthand, the cards are

2--Double
2--Copy
1

Now the doubling procedure can go two different ways depending on the interpretation of the rules.

Here is one procedure (which I think is incorrect):

First, the double ability is used to double the 2 on the Copy card:

2--Double
4--Copy
1

Then, we use the Copy ability, which under this interpretation allows the ability of another card to be used again. It just "brings Double back to life," so to speak:

2--Double Double
4--Copy
1

But because the 2 value has already been doubled, we cannot double it again. So, the double applies to the 1:

2--Double Double
4--Copy
2

The result is 8 attack.

Here is the procedure for the alternative interpretation (which I think is correct):

First, as before, the double ability is used to double the 2 on the Copy card:

2--Double
4--Copy
1

Then, the copy ability is used to become the ability from another card:

2--Double
4--Copy Double
1

Now when this new double ability is used, it can target the 2 on the Double card, since that card has not been doubled before:

4--Double
4--Copy Double
1

The result is 9 attack value.

The question, then, is whether the Copy ability resurrects dead abilities or becomes other abilities? Is it Dr. Frankenstein or a doppelganger? I think the right answer is that it is a doppelganger. It transforms into the ability of another card.
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Sean Quallen
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The same question pops up. And I've been interpreting it the other way, that the copied ability still belongs to the original card and that the copy card doesn't "transform" into another card with another ability.

However I'd love to hear Friese's interpretation of this rule as it'd be the authoritative one.
 
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Mark L
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Friedemann Friese answered an analogous question (about exchange cards) in this thread.

Essentially, what he said was that if you use a copy card to copy an exchange card, you can exchange the original exchange card but not the copy card because "the card cannot affect itself".

From this, it seems clear that the copy card gains the ability as the card being copied -- in other words, it effectively becomes another exchange card.

I'm sure the same must apply to double cards. This means you could use copy to double the value of the original double card, but not to double the value of the copy card.
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brayle wrote:
A concrete example would probably help:

Suppose we have just three cards on the table: a card that has a value of 2 and the ability "1x Double"; a card that has a value of 2 and the ability "Copy x1"; and a card with a value of 1 and no ability.
There are no cards with a fighting value of 2 and the copy 1x ability. That concrete won't set up properly.


lSweetJusticel wrote:
Radziol wrote:
I read it that when I use a Copy on Double, now the text on my Copy card is "You can double the fighting value of 1 of the other drawn fighting cards", and from the "Copy's point of view" the original Double card is "the other card".
Yes! This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier, but worded more clearly.
I don't see anything wrong with that from a rules perspective. Practically speaking, the copy cards have fighting values of 0 or 1, and the fighting values of the double cards are 1 and 2; in other words it's an interesting idea but there's little profit to be made from it. Cases where using those cards to double one another would be optimal would be rare.
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Justin
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SSJGQ wrote:
Vasher wrote:
When you use copy, you imagine that the text from the card you are copying is on the copy card itself, and then you use it as if the copy card is the card you copied. So if you have two cards out, one Double Card and one Copy Card. The Double Card can be used to double the Copy Card, and the Copy Card can be used to double the Double Card.
But wait.. that implies that you are copying the card and not just the ability. The rules say that you only get to copy the ability, and doesn't state that you get to attach that ability to the copy card. I know that's a convoluted statement, please let me know if it is not clear.

I think the real question here has turned into: Does the copied ability belong to the copy card or the original card?
When I said text I meant only the ability text, not the entire face of the card. The rules are clear that you only copy the ability.
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Lars Enden
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Sphere wrote:
brayle wrote:
A concrete example would probably help:

Suppose we have just three cards on the table: a card that has a value of 2 and the ability "1x Double"; a card that has a value of 2 and the ability "Copy x1"; and a card with a value of 1 and no ability.
There are no cards with a fighting value of 2 and the copy 1x ability. That concrete won't set up properly.
Fair enough. Still, the example is helpful to make the problem clear, I hope.
 
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Sean Quallen
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xipuloxx wrote:
Friedemann Friese answered an analogous question (about exchange cards) in this thread.

Essentially, what he said was that if you use a copy card to copy an exchange card, you can exchange the original exchange card but not the copy card because "the card cannot affect itself".

From this, it seems clear that the copy card gains the ability as the card being copied -- in other words, it effectively becomes another exchange card.

I'm sure the same must apply to double cards. This means you could use copy to double the value of the original double card, but not to double the value of the copy card.
This seems reasonable. I emailed FF yesterday, lets see if his English (and his concern!) is good enough to respond to me.
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Gillum the Stoor
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SSJGQ wrote:
xipuloxx wrote:
Friedemann Friese answered an analogous question (about exchange cards) in this thread.

Essentially, what he said was that if you use a copy card to copy an exchange card, you can exchange the original exchange card but not the copy card because "the card cannot affect itself".

From this, it seems clear that the copy card gains the ability as the card being copied -- in other words, it effectively becomes another exchange card.

I'm sure the same must apply to double cards. This means you could use copy to double the value of the original double card, but not to double the value of the copy card.
This seems reasonable. I emailed FF yesterday, lets see if his English (and his concern!) is good enough to respond to me.
Henning Kröpke, who co-wrote the rules for this game, has been extremely good about answering rules questions here.
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Based on all his contributions to these forums, I have found that the rules for the game are very consistent.

I would be very surprised if it turned out that

[A] you can use a copy card to copy an exchange card and use the copied exchange ability to exchange the original exchange card (which has been confirmed)

but

[B] you cannot use a copy card to copy a double card and use the copied double ability to double the original double card (assuming that that double card has not already been doubled by some other double card).
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Mark L
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I agree, Gillum. That's why I quoted the ruling on exchange cards: it seems to indicate the general principle of how the copy card works, assuming that it always works the same way.

If it worked one way with exchange cards, but the other way with copy cards, that would be extremely weird!
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Today I destroyed a card with the abillity "destroy" by copying it... I must agree that this does feel weird, but if I logically think about it, I can't see why I couldn't have done that.
 
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DraedGhawl wrote:
I destroyed a card with the ability "destroy" by copying it... I must agree that this does feel weird.
I think that, once you play enough, it will stop feeling weird.
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Elijah Foster
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The thread here is mostly overthinking it, though it is understandable.

All copy does is assume the printed ability from another played card. As "can't use a card on itself" is not a special ability, there's no need to decide whether it applies to the copy card or the copied card.
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