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Rules Reference, pg 14 wrote:
Vampire Encounters
...
If Dracula plays “Escape as Mist” or “Escape as Bat” before he
has played a number of combat cards greater than the number
of despair tokens on the time track, the card is canceled.


But LtP (see below) doesn't make any mention of despair tokens, so I'm thinking the RR above is correct? And that's simply the same rules as when fighting Dracula himself ('Pride' on his character card).

I guess the LtP is an old reference that hasn't been changed, perhaps after the introduction of the rule where it depends on the number of despair tokens?

Learn to Play, pg 14 wrote:
Fighting Vampires
...
Dracula cannot play escape cards for his vampires until he has
three combat cards in play.
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I believe you have to play 3 cards before you can have a vampire use an Escape card
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That's what I thought, until I saw the RR bit above which contradicts that.

I can't seem to find any other references in the rules/cards to help decide which of those is correct.

EDIT: Although I guess they're not mutually exclusive...? But that would be confusing not to mention "minimum 4th round of combat" or something on the RR... and doesn't really make sense since there are 3 tokens max anyway.
 
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The order for contradictions is cards first, then RRG, finally LTP. So in this case you must play a number of combat cards equal to despair tokens + 1, so a max of 4. The escape card does not count as the +1 card.
 
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What makes it so confusing is that in the Learn to Play, the second sentence of the Fighting Vampires section reads:
Quote:
When fighting a vampire, players use the same rules for combat as they would in a combat with Dracula

It just doesn't make sense to me that all the combat rules would be the same except for the timing of an escape card.

However, since it is mentioned in the Rules Reference, I suppose the golden rule falls into play that it is in fact dependent on the despair tokens.
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I suspect that last sentence of the "Fighting Vampires" bit in LtP should have been deleted.
 
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Pretty sure the LTP is wrong. The thing to note though is that the mechanic is still confusing and apparently does not count the card you are currently playing. So in Week 1 before any despair are out, the number should be greater than 0, which is one. But in the examples, they count what is already played only and not what you are about to play. So Week 1 you can't play it until Round 2 of combat. Week 2, Round 3. Week 3, Round 4. And after that Round 5.

I was initially under the impression it would count the card you are currently playing. Unless the examples are wrong....
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Despair tokens only matter when fighting with Dracula heimself?
It is good if regular vampires cannot escape during first three rounds. Hunter do have to have a chance to kill them after all!
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Hadn't thought of it that way... maybe the 3(4?)-round minimum was to prevent them doing hit & run attacks!

Anyway - I've asked FFG, so will let you know either way.
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Did you ever hear back about this?
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Quote:
When fighting a vampire, players use the same rules for combat as they would in a combat with Dracula


The rules are the same, but Dracula's restriction, which is printed out specifically on his own character sheet, does not apply to his vampires. So it is not really confusing.
 
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canisin wrote:
Quote:
When fighting a vampire, players use the same rules for combat as they would in a combat with Dracula


The rules are the same, but Dracula's restriction, which is printed out specifically on his own character sheet, does not apply to his vampires. So it is not really confusing.


So vampires can escape whenever?
 
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canisin wrote:
The rules are the same, but Dracula's restriction, which is printed out specifically on his own character sheet, does not apply to his vampires. So it is not really confusing.

So it's clear that the rule on Dracula's sheet applies for combat with Dracula himself (matching the description in the rulebooks).

Unfortunately, the two quotes in my original post (from the Learn to Play + Rules Reference) are both referring specifically to combat with "vampire encounters" (as per subject), and they contradict each other.

My guess is that they originally designed it so it was a fixed "can't escape before round 4" with vampires encounters (according to LtP), but later may have changed it to be the same as combat with Dracula for simplicity, and forgotten to delete the reference in the LtP. Either that, or someone made a mistake/forgot when writing the Rules Reference.

I haven't heard back from FFG on this one yet though.

I still have a few rules queries pending, although I (and a few other people) have received answers on some of the more "straightforward" queries that have come up on the forums, some of which were submitted later. I guess FFG must be working through the tougher questions/errors... maybe waiting on meetings or playtesting them or something, before they give any definitive answers?
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Slashdoctor wrote:
So vampires can escape whenever?


No, depending on which of the 2 rulebook quotes in my original email is correct...
"Vampire Encounters" can either escape in the 4th round at the earliest, or follow the same rules as Dracula himself (based on despair tokens).
 
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Well, vampire escaping early is VERY powerful. It is an ability that makes sense for Dracula, but not for vampires. If vampires can escape as easily as quickly discovered Dracula, then this is strongly shifting towards Dracula side and makes little to no sense.

It is my best guess that vampires cannot escape before 4th round and it makes sense, meaning that vampires are not getting stronger just because of passage of time (since they already do by maturing in the first place).
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Pudsy wrote:
Anyway - I've asked FFG, so will let you know either way.


Thanks! This is yet another rules contradiction that I came to the forums to ask about.
 
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canisin wrote:
Quote:
When fighting a vampire, players use the same rules for combat as they would in a combat with Dracula


The rules are the same, but Dracula's restriction, which is printed out specifically on his own character sheet, does not apply to his vampires. So it is not really confusing.


Yesterday I spotted the Vampire Encounters entry in the RR. Sorry for my comment above, it really is rather confusing and contradictory

It's also hard to argue thematically, are the baby vampires more prideful than dracula that they wait so long before escaping?
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Seriously, there is NO WAY that the Rules Reference is correct here. Allowing Dracula to escape early with every maturing vampire is way too powerful way too early.

I highly suggest following the Learn to Play here. Because Dracula will score a lotlot of points from those escaping vampires early in the game.
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Yep, looks like the Learn to Play is correct here after all.
Answer from FFG on when you can escape during a Vampire Encounter, compared with when you can escape when Dracula himself is in combat...

Quote:
Rules Question
Hi! Please can you clear up some confusion over when the Dracula player can escape from combat during a "Vampire Encounter" in Fury of Dracula 3rd Edition.

Learn to Play, pg 14 says: "Fighting Vampires ... Dracula cannot play escape cards for his vampires until he has three combat cards in play."

*BUT* Rules Reference, pg 14 says: "Vampire Encounters ... If Dracula plays “Escape as Mist” or “Escape as Bat” before he has played a number of combat cards greater than the number of despair tokens on the time track, the card is cancelled." [NOTE: so that is the same as during combat with Dracula himself]

Which one of those is right though?
Thanks!

Frank @ FFG wrote:
When in combat with vampire encounter cards, Dracula cannot player [sic] escape cards until there are three combat cards already in play (i.e. the fourth round). When fighting Dracula himself, you do the effect on his character sheet—the one you listed.
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As I expected then. It makes sense, as I said, due to game balancing reasons. If vampires can escape early, then there's absolutely no stopping them from maturing without sacrificing the rest of the game.

This obviously brings out an issue with Fantasy Flight rulebook system though. Since Rules Reference is mentioned as the bible compared to Learn to Play and Rules Reference is wrong, then one cannot really rely on rules reference to be more correct in the future either.
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