Recommend
6 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

The Siege of Jerusalem (Third Edition)» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Double the fun? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Pete Atack
United States
Round Rock
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I have not played this game in ages, but have it on the table.

Past play always saw me mass 4 legions for the quick rush of the North Wall & New City, then on to the TC if things went well.

So to try something different...

Should I split my forces in the face of an 'entrenched' enemy? I'm debating sending two legions against the New City and the 2 others against the Lower City.

I have no concerns about having only 2 legions in the NC after taking it, but 2 legions in the LC seems dangerous due to having defenders on 3 sides as well as the urban nature of the terrain hurting stacking, cohort integrity, and artillery placement if attacks are made from inside teh controlled area(where the heck would you place anything other than infantry!? There are only two open clusters - both 'under the walls').

If not there, may a split assault on the NC and Herod's Palace (and if the assault goes well - exploit into the Upper City? Choices, choices...

If I go with my first choice, I think the progression would be NC & LC; Tyropean City & City of David; UC & Antonia Fortress; Temple Quarter.

And that's said with a stiff upper lip and hopeful smile!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Lipka
United States
Wilmington
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Pete !

Wonderful post ! Great to hear that you have dug up an old chestnut and are enjoying it anew.

By all means, try your idea out. I think it has a lot of potential. It will definitely double your fun.

Your thoughts (questions) about Area control are quite valid. The 2/2 split will activate a lot of Judaean Reserves. These will begin the next Phase on-board. Even if you get both Areas, it will mean that the Roman faces a double front in Phase II with depleted Legions. Given such "good" fortune, what will you do with it in the face of Redoubts, Sorties and the need to reduce the Temple ? shake Do it anyway. Activate them and let us know if it really makes a difference.

Yes indeed, the choices are many !

I am continually challenged by the Roman need to progress in a way that assures the initiative. Your suggestion that Phase I might take both the NC and LC is a great start. 25% Levy capacity to start Phase II means that the Roman can do anything he wants in Phase II without the fear of a game ending experience. It would be wonderful to have a free Phase to reduce the Temple for further exploitation and I think this the way to go. The Roman must "make hay while the sun shines", and Phase I pits the best the Roman can offer against the weakest Judaean OOB.

Understand, however, that a smart Judaean will load up in the NC with more than 2 Factions and make the Roman pay. It is ever so tempting to commit two Legions to a NC attack with the assumption that they can do the job ... and it can be done ... but a 300+ VP loss will cripple the following Roman assaults. Keeping the Roman losses under 200 VP's in Phase I is essential. One Ballista on the LC Wall, in a Fort, is a terrible thing. Kiss 50 points goodbye ... and without a great Mine result it will be almost impossible to get 15 Built-ups in the LC in the face of 40 Reserve units and one reinforced Faction. cool

Better to take HP. One Legion can do it. And it does not trigger Reserves.

So much depends on the at-start Judaean Artillery placement !

If you choose to play 2/2 assault solitaire, I would suggest that you ask one of us (your Brothers in this Forum) to place these units so that you can get a feel for a proper Judaean defense. JC took my a** to the cleaners when I gave him a set-up that neglected a LC assault. Aaron did the same when he split his Artillery and I assaulted with 3 Legions against the LC. The element of surprise was lost when Aaron played a potential NC/LC assault. It made a significant difference. The tactics learned were instructive ... enough so to defeat the set-up ... but I would love to see your results against a Judaean set-up that took the 2/2 assault into account and the "Cats to the front" tactic !

As an aside, consider a straight NC assault with a Mining strategy that breaks through the QQ25 Wall and gets a second Mine on the NE Fort of AF. Take the NC in Phase I and Rubble that NE AF Fort ! Then take the TC and AF in Phase II. Prep the outer Temples Walls with Mines from this Phase II position. All of our experience leads us to believe that the Temple can be taken if AF is dead and the NC and TC are taken.

In any event, I applaud you for thinking in terms of Areas taken with respect to eventual Roman victory. What we need is some first hand experience in making it happen. Anything you can add, my dear Centurion, is greatly appreciated. Try that "Cat to the front" tactic, Pete. I did it imperfectly against the LC. Those suckers have always screwed up my stacking and added little to the MF. Sacrificing them to soak off a few killer shots would be a neat idea ... and if you could give me some insight as to the intricacies from your own experience, I would be grateful. Unfortunately, Aaron will read what you share ... and he has the Roman next time we meet.

No matter. We will give you full credit for the experience you share. Please do so in order that we may !

Best -

Alan



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Atack
United States
Round Rock
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the comments Alan.

As ugly as it could get (and quickly if things go wrong), I'm going to try it out and try and take the city from both ends.

Quote:
If you choose to play 2/2 assault solitaire, I would suggest that you ask one of us (your Brothers in this Forum) to place these units so that you can get a feel for a proper Judaean defense.


If you have the time to do this, I'd be more than happy to try out your recommendations (as well as being very appreciative).

So... if you want to give it a shot, we can say this is the situation :

Judean scouts and spies report the approach of 4 Roman legions closing on the city. The X & XII Legions move to the north, while the V & XV seal off the southern approaches. Titus' exact location is unknown. Persistent rumors are that the Romans have neither prepared or planned to build ramps or armored towers as part of their preparations, but will likely spend about 4 weeks undermining Jerusalem's walls.

The spies have served you well. Now can the militia and regulars hold the walls?


-----

I have already rolled for Mining, and assuming the attempt was successful, have designated Shaft target hexes.

After I have placed Judean artillery as you recommend I'll give you a basic Roman deployment and you are, again, more than welcome to give input to how you'd deploy troops to the walls (as general or specific as you feel like spending your time).

Thanks again for any advice and time. I'll post comments as often as possible once I begin.

Regards,

Pete
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Lipka
United States
Charleston
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Welcome to the Forum, Pete!

I apologize for my father. By no means should you hold back yout AP1 Assualt ideas! Here's a few I have knockin around in my noggin for what you might plan regarding the "divide to conquer" approach.ninja

The NC is a primary target for understandable reasons. First question: how many legions does it take to assure its fall? 3? 2? could one legion with Titus and an extra ram pull it off? Where should the remaining legions be placed, and why?

My answer is: two legions can succeed in the NC, but it takes patience, attention to Judean attrition, and Titus is not necessary. My personal favorite angle of attack here is the NE stretch of NC wall, because all the built-ups you need are close within the (anticipated) breaches around KK-LL17, but scattered and difficult to form a continuous Judean line. An easier, more natural approach is the long north wall west of Women's Gate: I haven't attacked there in ages, precisely because it is so predictable that Judean artillery is on-hand from the start.

PS. No reason to risk less than two legions and keep it a sure thing IMHO. A determined Judean defense might have what it takes to throw anything less than two back for good. To date, I cannot come up with a secondary front that truly demands better than two legions (otherwise, it becomes the new primary front!)

So, let's discuss what the remaining two legions can do. Herod's Palace is an easy bet if you want to assure the capture of another area, but the HP doesn't provide much to jump off from in later APs. SO it's a short term gain, with little to recommend it in the overview of the campaign. Here's the rest:
TQ. Mine the outer Temple wall and start threatening the inside. There is small chance the Judean will be foolish enough to let you capture the TQ "on the fly", but you'll be paving the road for the real assualt later. Drawback: The slope and the Susa gate make a bad combination for this approach. You will have limited mobility, the Judean will have effective range of fire, and sorties are possible at night once ZOC disappears. Weakly recommended, but I tell you this (listen up, dad): if I were the Judean, I would stack the Temple defense high if I saw the Romans rolling up the slope, and start dishing out Roman losses.
City of David: Non starter. To state the obvious, slope + breach + immediate built-ups is as good as it gets for the defender.
Lower City: This Area has alot of question marks over it nowadays. Some say it can be taken. I have successfully defended it against a determined assault. The slope again limits lateral mobility for the Roman, so set-up becomes crucial. At least there is small chance of a sortie: seige engines and artillery can be left relatively defenseless without worry.
Upper City: Also a question mark, but less so. The entry into UC is narrow, and a minimum of good Judean units could make the Romans suffer Thermopylae syndrome. Might work as a surprise, but the slope will slow the Romans enough to let the Judean re-position if he has underestimated the threat.
Any redoubts: It might be of value to just send the last two legions against any imposing section of redoubts, like Psephinus Tower or Yafo Gate, just to rubble them and pave the way for later. That's alot of Romans for a few hexes, and I'd like to tell you you can use them more effectively, but hey, it's an idea.

That's alot to digest, but if we have learned one thing, it is this: the campaign game demands careful coordination of APs if an eventual TQ assualt is to succeed. Dad wishes he could take 20% of Jerusalem in AP1 in order to give an entire phase to mining the TQ, then ramming it, then mining it. Cool. When he takes that much from me in AP1, I will congratulate him on his opportunity!laugh In the meantime, the effective use of AP1 is crucial for Roman success. It used to be enough to swamp the NC and take light losses: those days are over. The concept of two fronts is the wave of the future!

Changing the subject entirely, here is a potential Judean Artillery Set-up for the scenario you suggest.
Ballistae: Fort Z64 and Psephinus Tower (g39)
Onagri: Women's gate (Z23), pp17, gg17, K60, L70.
Catapultae: DD19, QQ25, Susa Gate(QQ36), Fort II61, Fort O70, K57, I50.
Cauldrons: U27, S30, P33, M36, J37, pp17, mm17, kk17, L64, L65, R67, FF61, CC62.

The cauldrons look a little spread out, but they will have a chance to move around (however slowly). As a North-South spilt gambit, I think this is a pretty solid (and aggressive! devil ) Judean set-up. You may use it, or you may wait upon my father. My setup is better, but don't tell him I told you that.

Once again, Pete, good to have you amongst us, and weclome to the Board! Si tu et exercitus tuus valeatis, mihi bene est.*

Aaron

*=If you and your army are well, it is good for me. Did I mention I am a Latin teacher?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Atack
United States
Round Rock
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Aaron,

I think it's great you and your father have a running competition with this!

I'm sticking with the North-South split attack. Even it is doomed, it should provide another insight to possibilities on both sides. Assuming good mining rolls, I'm guessing focusing on the south wall negate / lessen the effect of moving uphill for the Romans.

I'll print off your setup and use it assuming your father feels he can't do better!

Most likely I will not be sitting down to play until Friday-Saturday timeframe so I have a bit of time to field the other recommendation.

Thanks again for the comments and ideas. If the first game goes poorly, I think we'll have plenty of subject matter for a second try.

Pete
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Atack
United States
Round Rock
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT

ROMAN LEGIONS STUNNED AT THE GATES OF JERUSALEM

-----

So after 1 Assault Phase I can say the 2/2 strategy against a prepared Judean defender does not have a good chance at overall success.

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF) : Roman losses were horrific (running about 25% of my combat power) with a mixed bag on territorial gains. Judean losses were just as bad including about 40-50% of their artillery but their battleplan to bleed the Romans was working well.

So how it was to happen...

The 2/2 strategy saw 2 legions hitting both the New City and Lower City in an attempt to divide and squeeze Judean defenders. Along both walls mining created 4 breaches (2 on the North Wall and 2 on the LC wall) and heavily damaged several sections of wall as well as 2 bastions. Fortresses were deliberately not attacked in force as the plan was to harass with artillery / missile fire and swamp them from the flanks. The defense, with knowledge of the general Roman plan was prepared. Two factions heavily defended each wall / city area. Zealots largely sat back in built up areas opposite the breaches or in small groups ready to react to Roman penetrations. On the North Wall, Judean artillery was concentrated on the flanks and around the Antonia Fortress while in the LC it was placed in the forts stiffening the wall. Opposite them, Roman artillery was concentrated against 3 areas on each wall to be attacked to gain fire superiority for the advancing towers and escalades.

Execution.

In the north the legions moved quickly forward. Towers and escalades quickly hit the walls with infantry assaulting the breaches. A mix of cavalry, light infantry and testudoes tried to occupy as many Judean firing points as possible - and in many places paid heavily in flesh and blood. Militia was cleared off the walls in droves but the bastions and regulars were only cleared after a half day's fighting. The breach area (at the mid point between the Women's gate and west end of the North Wall) consumed 3-4 cohorts and countless Zealots and regulars. Towards the end of the day the Women's Gate collapsed due to some amazingly efficient work by a Ram (now surrounded by dead and dying legionnaires); this effectively signaled the end of the organized Judean defense as only sections around the AF and Yafo Gate were being held by fresh defenders. On the flip side, without access to their artillery and siege engines, and both legions drained, Rome was ready to half the battle at nightfall.

In the south things were much different. Roman artillery & missile fire was ineffective for the first phases of the battle, but Judean fire from the walls took an enormous toll on the legions as they slowly ground their way up the slope. As the infantry reached the walls, they looked back and saw the towers still lagging behind - escalades would have to do the work for now. Under now effective cover from archers, slingers and artillery, some wall sections were cleared, but the losses mounted. Only with the 2d wave of heavy infantry did positions begin to fall under the Roman push. Where one would expect quick results - the breaches - the Romans found only pain. At least two waves of cohorts were battered trying to push through before a third push gained entry to the built up sections beyond. At this point sunlight was running short, but most of the wall was in Roman hands (except for the far flanks), but defenders were stacked deep in the houses immediately beyond the walls and were actively counterattacking. As such, the Romans were not able to form a solid line of fresh heavy infantry and start pushing and fighting quickly became a disjointed series of individual contests.

Some lessons.

Breaches - I was surprised how many legionnaires were killed in the breach trying to push out (breaches seemed to be missile magnets). Lesson - clear the walls on the sides of the breaches and consider only moving through a breach, not just onto it.

The Slope - against a prepared defender the pace of advance may be too slow to press the issue. Half the day will be taken up with just getting the towers and rams in place & escalades against defended walls can be ugly unless the walls are completely cleared of defenders.

Retreats - keep lanes for retreat clear. Lots of Romans perished when unable to retreat from walls or back through a breach that was in a ZOC.

Cats as bait - this can work. I tried with one Legion and moved up several catapults to be soak off units. It can be "VP expensive" but they tended to last longer than infantry (even if only 1 phase).

Reserves - although the pure numbers of these did not 'damage' the overall Roman attack, it proved insurmountable in the Lower City where Judean mobs were just waiting to reinforce the walls or swarm the breaches.

I'll post a bit more later, but that's impression #1 on the 2/2 strategy vs prepared defenders.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Lipka
United States
Wilmington
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yup.

soblue

Alan
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Lipka
United States
Charleston
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Maybe the result was predictable. But two things are achieved:

1. How to take the NC with a mimimum force? A few things I might have changed were your attempt against the Women's Gate and any sap-off prior to a two-hex breach. Towers and Rams are sufficient to absorb Judean fire, no need to ever take further potential losses. When you are read to push at the breach, only then should you take a gambit with your legionnaires.

2. Did you have fun? Bottom line, I think two lines of attack are more fun, and the right thing to do strategically. The next question to ask is... where is the second line supposed to go? IS there even a right answer?

Keep playing! We'll figure this one out.

Aaron
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Atack
United States
Round Rock
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd tend to agree with you. The Women's Gate, more than anything else, sucked up artillery fire that could have been used far better to clear off the walls around the breach. The early commitment of the legionnaires also ran up the losses to little benefit as attacking up an escalade is a terrible tactic; it's best used as an extension of movement as opposed to a combat extender (i.e. use it to move atop a cleared wall space instead of attacking up it to clear a wall space).

Even in defeat, the worth of a double attack is clear. I do not think the increase in Judean reserves is necessarily bad as long as you continue to play to the Roman strengths. But as you mention - selection is key (a prepared defense of the Lower City ain't it!).

I'll try again in the near future I think and see where else the walls look like they need scaling... arrrh
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Lipka
United States
Wilmington
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Pete -

I agree with Aaron. I usually end up doing so.

Perhaps the biggest error we make as the Roman is to take the "low hanging fruit" from the very beginning. Four intact Legions against the NC is not very difficult if Mining is used at the outset, Testudines are deployed to nail down any advance into the Area, and good formations are used to minimize Roman losses. The following assault on the TC is also going to be successful for the same reasons.

But then what ?

Twenty Levy % Points in hand ... 25 needed to get to the next Phase. There is simply no way to get 25% exactly. Taking HP, AF and CoD adds up to 25%, but ... shake Oh yes, it is possible to get MORE ... but Judaean defensive positions, avenues of attack and the depleted Roman Legions are not likely to make much headway against the Areas they need. Even if they somehow do, those darn Redoubts can make it all for naught with a Turn 10 counter-attack.

The alternative is a "Double Your Fun" assault. I like the moniker !

"Doubling" the assault can take three forms. One is to hit two Areas at the Start and make them add up to 20% of the Levy Capacity. LC and HP does this. The advantage gained is a "free" Phase, where the Roman can prepare his assault for Phase III without regard to reducing the Levy Capacity in Phase II. This makes the math much better.

The second is to take the NC with one assault and "double" it by inflicting enough damage on Judaean defensive terrain to ensure a Phase II that garners a 15% Levy Capacity reduction. An example would be a three Legion assault on the NC and a one Legion assault on the LC, with the intent of taking the NC in Phase I and the LC in Phase II. Another would be a NC victory with damage resulting in a Breach into the Temple Quarter. Phase II objectives would be to take the TC and further reduce Temple Walls (both external and internal). With 20% Levy Capacity in hand and two Phases of Mining on the Temple, and with approaches from the NC and TC, well, it should make for a viable Temple assault during Phase III.

The third is to use the Interphase to Mine the NC Wall and hope for a Breach that can open the way for a following Mine into an interior Wall. Unless the Roman has incredible luck, it will mean getting a Ram into position to hammer the secondary Wall into a Breach. This "doubling" can pay big dividends, however, by dropping the MM31 Fort of AF and/or hexes of the 'R' Wall into the TC. That is the key ... Rubbling the hexes needed to make Phase II easier for the Legions. If MM31 is Rubbled and the NC taken, it is possible to take the TC and AF in Phase II. Both Aaron and I will tell you that the Temple is vulnerable in AP3 if AF is captured.

The 'R' Wall is historically where the Romans broke through in Phase I and were thrown back. No wonder. Any Breach, however, that can give access to the R49 Fort and its destruction in Phase II will significantly affect Phase III actions. Like MM31, R49 must fall.

Yes sir, you have it right ! Double your fun. Do it from the start when the Roman has the advantage. Whichever option the Roman chooses, he must think ahead with the initiative in mind. Make the Judaean guess ...

Best -

Alan


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Hope
United States
Woodside
California
flag msg tools
badge
Likes: Mountains, Tundra Turn-offs: Serpents, Marsh
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great thread!

I think there is an "answer"--2 legions against the Temple/NC junction and 2 against the New City, either along the NE or NW walls. If you get too predictable doing this you can vary your attacks a bit, but I think this is the best way to proceed against any but the most overloaded Judean artillery positioning.

I've tried attacking CoD in AP1 (bad idea) and HP (several times, with as Aaron says limited follow-through--as often as not you have to idle a legion defending it in AP2 when you don't really want to try and take UC). But NC is by far the easiest to take city area, and you really NEED to spend some time in each of the first 3 interphases and APs working on the Temple. Certainly I would argue that your first mine shaft in each interphase should go on the Temple.

To the extent there's a gambit that can be employed, I think you can try to push forward into the Tyropean. A mine under the Women's gate or nearby can pave the way for a mad dash to the Tyropean, and if the Jews aren't prepared that can be a huge prize in AP1. The problem is that if it goes wrong (and usually it will) the butcher's bill is very high indeed.

Generally, I think Alan and Aaron's commentary is right on and I'm pleased to see this great old game still getting some attention!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Lipka
United States
Charleston
South Carolina
flag msg tools
arrrhFlurry of comments! Most excellent.

I think Stephen has it right... the Temple needs to be addressed from phase 1. I have never liked the option of waiting before AP1, but I might as well wait nine weeks each time, since we never make it to the point where it matters! soblue

Still, I have had the opportunity to assault the Temple from exactly that angle (ie, northeast corner) and I dislike it. The key to any final Temple edifice assault lies in those two clear hexes within the inner wall, and the dog-leg of a an assualt gives the Judean every advantageous firing position until rams can clear them... there aren't enough hours in the day. Er, daylight turns.

I am much more fond of the following scenario: Ap1, take NC; AP2, mine Af on the east side and take Tc; AP3, ram down the Af eastern forts, mine the Tadi gate, ram that down too, ramp the western AF and mine the western TQ wall so that you can break into the TQ, and immediately advance your rams without Melee interference.

But, as you will note, this doesn't spread the effort over 3 APs... it makes the third an all-or-nothing sort of race. One I have never seen run successfully. There must be a different order of events...

From the Judean standpoint, I think I would be willing to see the Roman make a pre-emptive strike at the Tq on AP1, because 1) my garrisons can come into play and 2) I can focus my regulars at this point without needing to station zealots there. Two legions just won't be able ot take the Tq on the fly, so melee can be managed by a single strong faction; ben Gurion is ideal. The remaining three factions, with a full count of zealots, deal out some harsh blows in the NC... my particular favorite is holding an entire faction behind the walls, ready to counterattack the first Roman wave that breaks in. Devoid of artillery support, Probably in the clear, unstable and on the attack, 6 or 8 regulars can demolish half a legion in no time! angry
And all this so that the Romans can feel a little better about the TQ wall?

The other idea Stephen mentioned was the NC + TC assault! I love it! ALthough I would never recommend it. And as the Judean I would stuff it. But as the Roman... I wonder where I would try it. Near the QQ fort? ALong the long wall? Near Yafo gate on another dog-leg? IF you catch the Judean off guard, it might be done. It was what Titus hoped for, historically, and he came close.

Wow! If it happened, then dad's dream is realized; a free AP2 to do as much damage as possible, kepe losses low, knock down some TQ walls for interior mine shafts to follow. It's a worthwhile speculation.

Last thing; Stephen's brief analysis of HP is dead on. It's a trap promising short-term gain, with little to offer as APs pass. It can definately be taken, but it's a liability afterwards. The wisdom of experience tells me to stear clear of this one, at least until bigger areas are secure.

Aaron
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Hope
United States
Woodside
California
flag msg tools
badge
Likes: Mountains, Tundra Turn-offs: Serpents, Marsh
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Aaron,

The 2 legions you send against the TQ in AP1 will be largely unhurt and the vanguard for the fairly bloody fighting in TC in AP2. The main purpose is to get 2 rams there. Once you've got a breach somewhere along the Temple wall, you can usually direct the all-important shaft on the inner Temple wall by threading that needle.

What's good about assaulting that junction? Well, you get access to a gate to TC, plus you get to reduce some of the strongpoints that will ruin you otherwise in AP2. The hardest part of the Roman job (besides, well, everything) is preventing SIEGE ENGINE DISASTER in the AF/TQ/TC nexus in AP2. You simply MUST have siege engines operating there, and the combination of hellacious Judean firepower and sortie possibilities makes it very likely that the area will be the death of the campaign (if not immediately, virtually through casualty points). So you are basically JUST using rams/AT with those legions and perhaps supplementing the main NC assault with some opportune built-up captures. Coupled with a very cautious advance against the NC from the other 2 legions (sometimes taking 3 or more adjoining bastions before coming down), you can keep casualties low in AP1 while also doing decent damage.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Lipka
United States
Charleston
South Carolina
flag msg tools
Hey Steven!

I see where you're going, regarding the TQ in AP1. Two rams up the slope, breach a hex, then back away. If I were doing this, I would look at QQ33 or 34, in order to stay away from Susa Gate... and a possible Judean sortie. If I were the Judean, I would definately want to sortie at the moment of the first breach, and try to snag one of the Rams. IMHO, mining would make this possibility even more likely, although if I got two adjacent breaches on the Outer TQ I wouldn't even have to advance. Too bad my mining typically sux. yuk

I might be just as tempted to knock in the QQ28 fort; alot safer for the Rams, more of a threat to the NC, and once again IMHO a critical fort once the push into Death Valley begins.

Question: Dad has pointed out a rule that makes all Outer TQ wall hexes the equivalent of bastions. Obviously, this affects their breach strength... but dad also claims they can stack two per hex. Is this the correct interpretation? It seems to add injury to insult, as if the TQ wasn't a hard enough nut to crack! I would LOVE for someone to debunk this... please please please!

Anyway, the concept for preparation against the TQ is basically correct to start immediately. In all honesty, I would try for the QQ25 fort, then when night approached I would send those two rams at the QQ32 fort (northeastern-most on the TQ wall). It wouldn't garner an inner-wall mine shaft, but rubs out one of several vital Judean crossroads. The AP2 mineshaft will probably be spent on the AF-east, followed by a mine shaft towards the "armpit" between the Tadi gate and MM33 Fortress in AP3.

Such mining avoids the inner wall, but any shaft against the inner wall basically prohibits any effect shaft against the Outer wall because of proximity rules. I am willing to trust my rams with the job, if I can get solid control of the TQ courtyard by turn 3 or 4. As always, the AF fouls the whole plan. If I could get the TC in AP1, I would spend the whole AP2 rubbling that !@#$ing area and the western TQ wall!

One final puzzle; should the Roman Ramp be placed against the AF? Or maybe reserved for the late game, when Romans need to get fast control of some Wall hexes to prevent attrition? I tend to think the former, but to date I haven't experienced the latter. *sigh* One day, I swear.

~Aaron

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Hope
United States
Woodside
California
flag msg tools
badge
Likes: Mountains, Tundra Turn-offs: Serpents, Marsh
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yep, Temple walls stack 2. It's brutal.

I think AF is the ideal place to use a ramp, but only on the AP that you are going to take it. One of the big problems with AF is that it's easy to take/destroy many of the Fort spaces and not get the last one. So I agree the ramp is best used there, but it's dangerous. Like any Roman plan, I guess.

My only successful "orthodox" (haha) attack against the TQ went by way of reducing the NE corner of the Temple to rubble in AP1 and 2, then directing a shaft on the inner Temple in the AP3 interphase. One thing that the Romans DO have going for them at that point is that A) the Judeans have no easy way to get troops in or out so B) panicked units are a HUGE problem for them. So it's actually surprisingly valuable to be fighting in the Holiest of Holies early in the AP in that you can get some panicked Judean debris floating around giving you +2 on attacks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Lipka
United States
Wilmington
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great posts, Steve ! Thanks for chiming in !

Given the above Strategies, I think there are three tactical considerations that the Roman must work out.

First: Minimize casualties. This means exposing the fewest number of Legionaries to enemy fire. Proper technique would be to make a break in a Wall, pound the shoulders of the Breach to reduce Judaean firepower, soak off with units that can take punishment without being killed outright, get Testudines inside the Wall and exploit the Breach to take the Area.

Second: Mine early. The Judaean defense rests on the Terrain advantage given by Walls and Built-ups. Mining and Rams take away the Walls. Critical Wall hexes must be identified and nailed in order to prepare for the next Phase.

Third: Concentrate Missile Fire. This is the only way to ensure a steady attrition of Judaean units. ‘E’ results are the only results that matter.

Applying these tactical objectives to any Strategy is absolutely essential.

Now, if the predictable assault is against the NC, then the Judaean loads up and takes his 200+ VP’s.

Unacceptable !

The Roman must threaten at least 2 Areas. Double your fun.

A Roman who can come at the Judaean from 2 or 3 different directions can make ben Yair spread his Artillery out. It means that extra unit in the critical hex is not going to be there. Uncertainty plays into the Roman hand. Of course, the Roman must place his units before Judaean Artillery is revealed, but the threat of multiple avenues of assault is something the Judaean must take into account. It makes a difference in Phase I.

Best –

Alan


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Hope
United States
Woodside
California
flag msg tools
badge
Likes: Mountains, Tundra Turn-offs: Serpents, Marsh
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think it's less about THREATENING 2 areas in AP1 than about potentially ATTACKING 2 areas in AP1--it's OK to only attack a single area, but you want it to be away from ballistae/onagers and ideally, cauldrons.

Here's an idea which I never implemented but definitely thought about: UC+HP in AP1. UC doesn't have the same brutal slope as LC, and UC positions you to attack several different city sections in AP2 (LC, TC, NC). It also gives you decent space/cover between edifices and the HP overlap so your troops aren't sitting ducks. And of course it's 20% of the city so that your second AP is pretty much wide open and you're not even necessarily on the "must take TQ in AP3" clock any more.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.