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Subject: Scenario 3: Overpowered Gor? rss

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Enon Sci
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Last game we played was ruined a bit by this Dark card. It was a two player game, and our combined strength was 12. This gave the Gor a strength of 24, and with 3 dice to roll initially, it seemed a foregone conclusion we couldn't defeat it.

If we did a team battle, our strength would match its base strength only if we both managed to roll 6s. Without witches brews, the helm, the prince, or herbs (which were all used by this point), it seemed mathematically impossible to defeat this creature. It didn't help that he came out within a few rounds of space N, but it really dampened my enthusiasm for the design choices made in this title.

Did we play something wrong, or is this Gor really poorly designed?
 
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T. Goemaere
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How much was the strength of each hero?
In most cases, it's better that only the weakest player fight against this gor.
 
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Enon Sci
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Wait, is the strength determined on a per encounter basis? I thought it was set in stone when the creature was spawned.

Humm..

One hero had 7, the other (me) had 5.

I thought the rules specified the creature had double the combined strength of the heroes (so, in this case, 24). Without outside boons (helm, witches brew, etc), we wouldn't be able to beat this even with perfect rolls.
 
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Serena
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Yes, the Gor just has double the strenght of the heros attacing it. Maybe something got lost in the translation, but on my card it says:
Quote:

Dieser Got hat doppelt so viele Stärkepunkte wie die Helden, die ihn angreifen, zusammen.
Which translates to:
The stength of this Gor is double the combined strenght of the heros attacing it.
And then there is an example that with the help of the price the strengh goes only up.
 
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Alexander Steinbach
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You need to try to save up the items you find during the legend for the final battle. You will find that you realy need that whitch brew, helmets, herbs and any other extras you can find to battle the final enemy.

Don't waste them on skralls and other basic enemies.

Just try again and adjust your tactics. It is quite normal that you lose the first playthrough of a scenario. Sometimes even the second one.
But with these losses you improve and learn and eventually you will beat it.
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Enon Sci
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Irgendwer wrote:
Yes, the Gor just has double the strenght of the heros attacing it. Maybe something got lost in the translation, but on my card it says:
Quote:

Dieser Got hat doppelt so viele Stärkepunkte wie die Helden, die ihn angreifen, zusammen.
Which translates to:
The stength of this Gor is double the combined strenght of the heros attacing it.
And then there is an example that with the help of the price the strengh goes only up.
I originally read your response while at work, and I had hoped it was something I might have overlooked, but upon checking the card I see that wasn't the case. Here is the text from the card in the FFG print:

Quote:

The Empowered Gor

The dark mage Varkur has empowered a gor who is wreaking havoc across the countryside.

Place 1 gor in space 35 and mark it with a star token.

-----------------------------------------------------

Legend Objective: The heroes must defeat the empowered gor before it reaches space 0 (the castle) or the legend marker reaches space N of the legend track. If the empowered gor is defeated, immediately place the legend marker on the N tile of the legend track.

-----------------------------------------------------

The empowered gor has 7 willpower points and twice the entire party's team strength. For example, if the part has a total of 17 strength points, the empowered gor has 34 strength points. When calculating the empowered gor's strength, do not count strength the heroes have gained from using medicinal herbs.

During battle, the empowered gor rolls 3 red dice and adds identical die results. The gor must be defeated in the first round of battle, otherwise it is immediately moved to a space 7 less than the current space. Example...
So, as you can see, nothing in the FFG translation references a context sensitive nature to the strength, besides the initial comparison to the combined party's strength. As this is written, one would also need to get 7 numerical value points above his life value to even defeat him, which in any case seems a mathematical impossibility. If he rolled the lowest possible (two ones and a two), that would give him 26 points, so we would need to got 33 points -- at a minimum -- to defeat him. With 12 strength between us, and the ability to only add 12 more to that (6s on our respective die rolls), you can see why I felt robbed.

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Darth Ed
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Alexander is correct. It's a translation error. Refer to the unofficial errata at

https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/thing:127398:moreinfo

for this and other translation errors in the FFG version (and versions for other languages).
 
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Enon Sci
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DarthEd wrote:
Alexander is correct. It's a translation error. Refer to the unofficial errata at

https://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/thing:127398:moreinfo

for this and other translation errors in the FFG version (and versions for other languages).
That is very good to know, thank you both.

However, how does this make it any better?

ex.

Archer: Strength 5

Gor would be strength 10.

I roll a six, the gor rolls a 1, 1 and 2.

My total would be 11

The Gor would have 12.

I need to beat him by 7, which means I'd need to do 19 at a minimum (mathematically impossible).

Am I missing something? I'd need the strongest herb, the witches brew (which we never even found the witch in that game, being too busy dealing with other issues) and get lucky rolls to have had a chance.

Seems just horribly designed, any way you slice it. As somebody said above, this demands foreknowledge to be successful (i.e. one needs to gather the herbs or hunt for the witch in anticipation of this specific battle, yet one doesn't even know if that card will have been drawn).

I haven't spoiled the other dark cards to see if they're all this.. umm.. grand, but I certainly hope this one is an outlier.
 
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Wolfram Troeder
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As in all other scenario-based adventure games you hoard the goodies for the boss-monster. I you pilfer them away don't whine.

There are no points or other artificial success markers. You do not keep stuff between legends. It does not matter if you defeat the final enemy with lots of stuff to spare or by the scrapes of your fingernails. You just have to defeat him, period. If you do you win, if not try again.
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Andreas Krüger
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The game is designed so that you need multiple attempts to win. The key to defeating the Gor is that you want a low strength and high dice modifiers. The other cards will demand other approaches, but having herb, witch brew and runestones will be always useful.
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Enon Sci
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Wolfram wrote:
As in all other scenario-based adventure games you hoard the goodies for the boss-monster. I you pilfer them away don't whine.
I wouldn't call this whining. Whining would be if I had a shot at all. This is a mathematical impossibility that the game didn't prepare me for. This is called broken design.

Most RPGs / adventure game hybrids focus on personal progression in character strength and abilities to stand against the end game boss. Rarely (to never) is the focus on gathering one-shot items to stand even a 1% chance of a win. Such elements are always helpful, but to make them finite and mandatory, without indication they're mandatory, is bad design.

In my game, both our fate cards were combat oriented (no clue if they all are). My partner's target was a troll, and at the start of the game only two had spawned, both near the castle. This became an early game priority as we had 4~5 rounds to strengthen up and defeat the trolls before they disappeared from the board. The two randomly placed medicinal herbs were across the board from each other, so we naturally used the singular accessible one to help stop the troll -- especially since the game gave zero indication we'd need anything above and beyond personal development to handle the boss.

This is my point: things like the witches brew and medicinal herbs should be helpful, but not mandatory. If they are a mandatory condition for success, something needs to be telegraphed to the players to not use them earlier in the session, especially if earlier in the session you're faced with difficult odds and battles as a known condition of success. This is objectively bad design. It would never fly in a video game, it would be considered broken.

Like I said, I have no clue what the other three dark cards are like. Perhaps they're all variations on this theme (empowered Skrall, Empowered Troll), or maybe they're not. However, what I can say is that in the first two scenarios, additional items were never mandatory to succeed, they were just helpful (a boon, but not an unalterable element of the win condition). So nothing trained us to anticipate having a mathematically zero chance of success despite vastly boosting our respective strengths.

As a designer, I detest making foreknowledge mandatory for success, unless the game is designed to incorporate failure as an element of the experience (e.g. T.I.M.E Stories).
 
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Andreas Krüger
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I think most of those who like Legends see "failure as an element of the experience". I understand that you don't, probably because it is not tied into to the theme as in T.I.M.E.
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Lucas Hedgren
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Anarchosyn wrote:
So nothing trained us to anticipate having a mathematically zero chance of success despite vastly boosting our respective strengths.
There is more than one way to increase your "strength."
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Enon Sci
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
I think most of those who like Legends see "failure as an element of the experience". I understand that you don't, probably because it is not tied into to the theme as in T.I.M.E.

You could say the same for any cooperative game, but the key distinction is there is normally some possibility (even 1%) of beating the game on the first try. Do you disagree?

Sure, the chances of doing so with Robinson Crusoe or Ghost Stories is rare, but it is the possibility that drives players to attempt to be successful. Where TIME Stories guarantees failure on the first run, you know this going in. That is the distinction.

boomtron wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:
So nothing trained us to anticipate having a mathematically zero chance of success despite vastly boosting our respective strengths.
There is more than one way to increase your "strength."
Do go on.
 
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Andreas Krüger
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Anarchosyn wrote:

You could say the same for any cooperative game, but the key distinction is there is normally some possibility (even 1%) of beating the game on the first try. Do you disagree?
I think you had your 1% but some decisions and the luck of the draw gave you the 99% outcome even before the end fight. It is hard to say, because I was not there. It was a bit of an anticlimax for sure to run into the then invincible Gor, but you can kill it with the right tools and you had a non-zero chance to have these.

Anarchosyn wrote:

Where TIME Stories guarantees failure on the first run, you know this going in. That is the distinction.
Yes, I think this is what I meant with the thematic tie in.

Anarchosyn wrote:

boomtron wrote:


There is more than one way to increase your "strength."
Do go on.
Probably you know already, but:

- The helmet gives you 2.3 strength points on average when you roll 4 dice and 1.3 points when you roll 3 dice. For the warrior it is better than strength points, for the dwarf only if (s)he cannot use the discount or is maxed out.
- Runestones give you a dice roll of 6-12 (I hope I remember this one correctly).
- A well chosen turn order can help you to take the right amount of risk with the archer, use potions/ herbs in the right moment and maximize the wizard's power (especially with the runestones which should always go to the wizard).

(For example, the warrior goes first with four dice and a helmet. Should (s)he roll at least one six and a one, the wizard can help him/ her and get a bonus of six points. This is the best the wizard can do, so you want the heroes with a helmet and a lot of dice to roll first. Then goes the dwarf where it is less likely to obtain the big bonus. Now you already have a good idea what you need to win the battle and the archer rolls, using the witch's brew when needed. Finally the wizard goes with the runestones. If (s)he has not used his/ her ability yet, the best bonus to gain is four points, so you want to roll last with the runestone-wizard.)
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Alexander Steinbach
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Without spoiling anything, I can tell you that all other dark cards and the majority of other legends follow a similar buildup.

You defend the keep from monsters, you complete 1 or 2 objectives, all the while preparing yourself for some final encounter. Naturally, you will need to become more powerful in order to beat that.

So, yes, finding the witch, collecting the rune stones, buying gear like helmets and strength, and searching for herbs and other goodies is in fact mandatory. You don't need to find everything, but with none of them, the legends may become very hard indeed.
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Jonathan Rowe
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Send the Wizard (with unboosted Strength 2) against the Gor (strength 4). If the Wizard is equipped with Runestones, he has a pretty good chance of scoring 14, which might be enough if the Gor rolls badly (like, 1-1-3 or 1-2-3). If he's got any one out of Herbs, the Prince or the Potion, he'll probably beat the Gor unless the monster rolls a lucky double or triple.

Personally, I've never got as far as the Dark Fate card on this Legend. It's really tough.
 
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Andreas Krüger
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A wizard with runestones cannot carry herbs or potions. But of course you can send another hero with him who is also low on strength. You cannot really work towards that, but on the other hand, when the dwarf uses all your gold to buy strength, you may have the archer or warrior also low on strength.
 
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Serena
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The prince is of no use since his strength only makes the Gorgeous stronger. The wizard with the runes tones though is really powerful.
 
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Justin Weber
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we sent an archer with low strength and the runestones and couldn't beat the gor. I see how the wizard would have been better or add another low strength person with herbs and helm etc to help modify.
 
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