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Subject: New Legacy rss

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Tim

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I'm pretty new to this site, and I haven't paid THAT close attention to the top 100, but I just wanted to point out that Pandemic Legacy jumped from 72 yesterday to 58 today. I know Caverna made rather massive strides like that, but the only data points I've seen from that (from the top 100 charts) shows a month-to-month basis. Is this surge unprecedented and pretty much a guaranteed top 10, or have other games risen THAT aggressively only to lose steam and collapse?
 
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Michael Berg
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It has happened before.

The most notable example is Monkey Auto Races, which literally went from obscurity one day to international fame at the number one slot the next.
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Tim Mierz
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Without having the hard data in front of me, I feel like one of the editions of Space Hulk had some huge surges up the rankings, then fell after Games Workshop exhibited hostility toward fan-created content on BGG, ruining the game's goodwill. (I may not have the story quite straight, but it's along those lines.)
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Magnus Karlsson
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CasualSax wrote:
It has happened before.

The most notable example is Monkey Auto Races, which literally went from obscurity one day to international fame at the number one slot the next.


But that was kind of a flash mob aprils fools joke.
 
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Matt Brown
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7 Wonders was the last to skyrocket like Legacy has. There are, however, far more games out now so it is more impressive. I'm still not sure Pandemic with a plot is really that much better of a game.
 
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matthean wrote:
7 Wonders was the last to skyrocket like Legacy has. There are, however, far more games out now so it is more impressive. I'm still not sure Pandemic with a plot is really that much better of a game.


It's much worse. Pandemic is a game of strategy. Pandemic Legacy has no strategy because you don't even know the rules, which is a prerequisite for having a strategy, or for being a game at all. Pandemic Legacy is a non-game activity and a really pointless and droll one at that. Why should I feel anything in particular about the occurrence of some outcome drawn from an unconstrained and arbitrary universe of possibilities that exists only in the designers head? I'm not interested in the mental lives of designers. I'm more interested in rule systems and the emergent possibilities that arise out of them.
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Jesse Rockwell
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Kiraboshi wrote:
matthean wrote:
7 Wonders was the last to skyrocket like Legacy has. There are, however, far more games out now so it is more impressive. I'm still not sure Pandemic with a plot is really that much better of a game.


It's much worse. Pandemic is a game of strategy. Pandemic Legacy has no strategy because you don't even know the rules, which is a prerequisite for having a strategy, or for being a game at all. Pandemic Legacy is a non-game activity and a really pointless and droll one at that. Why should I feel anything in particular about the occurrence of some outcome drawn from an unconstrained and arbitrary universe of possibilities that exists only in the designers head? I'm not interested in the mental lives of designers. I'm more interested in rule systems and the emergent possibilities that arise out of them.


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papagamer72 wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
matthean wrote:
7 Wonders was the last to skyrocket like Legacy has. There are, however, far more games out now so it is more impressive. I'm still not sure Pandemic with a plot is really that much better of a game.


It's much worse. Pandemic is a game of strategy. Pandemic Legacy has no strategy because you don't even know the rules, which is a prerequisite for having a strategy, or for being a game at all. Pandemic Legacy is a non-game activity and a really pointless and droll one at that. Why should I feel anything in particular about the occurrence of some outcome drawn from an unconstrained and arbitrary universe of possibilities that exists only in the designers head? I'm not interested in the mental lives of designers. I'm more interested in rule systems and the emergent possibilities that arise out of them.



This isn't remedial reading hour. You may have to use certain skills of comprehension to understand my posts, which contain ideas rather than just feels.
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Jesse Rockwell
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Kiraboshi wrote:
papagamer72 wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
matthean wrote:
7 Wonders was the last to skyrocket like Legacy has. There are, however, far more games out now so it is more impressive. I'm still not sure Pandemic with a plot is really that much better of a game.


It's much worse. Pandemic is a game of strategy. Pandemic Legacy has no strategy because you don't even know the rules, which is a prerequisite for having a strategy, or for being a game at all. Pandemic Legacy is a non-game activity and a really pointless and droll one at that. Why should I feel anything in particular about the occurrence of some outcome drawn from an unconstrained and arbitrary universe of possibilities that exists only in the designers head? I'm not interested in the mental lives of designers. I'm more interested in rule systems and the emergent possibilities that arise out of them.



This isn't remedial reading hour. You may have to use certain skills of comprehension to understand my posts, which contain ideas rather than just feels.


Oh... I comprehended quite clearly. I'm stunned that this was a serious post.
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Cameron McKenzie
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There is plenty of strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Most of the time, new rules are introduced between sessions and not during them (although that isn't always the case). These sessions are just as strategic as a regular game of pandemic, except the rule set is a bit different (but known) and there are long term consequences to each outbreak and some small incentives to eradicate or make labs in specific places.
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MasterDinadan wrote:
There is plenty of strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Most of the time, new rules are introduced between sessions and not during them (although that isn't always the case). These sessions are just as strategic as a regular game of pandemic, except the rule set is a bit different (but known) and there are long term consequences to each outbreak and some small incentives to eradicate or make labs in specific places.


There is no strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Let's say I want to treat disease in Baghdad but you want me to fly to Seoul... how to decide among these options? I could argue that if we let Baghdad outbreak then the world will explode... what do you or could you have to say to that? Any argument you offer against it would be premised on "well, the designer wouldn't make the game work like that." That supports my point about Legacy games being more about the mental lives of designers, not about strategy.

I would like to call upon users Hobbess, Daybreak, nebyeh, R3DSH1FT, and TylerGoble1 to come and support their viewpoint rather than thumbing-up an insulting throwaway image macro to imply that I'm talking nonsense.
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Kyle
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It is because pandemic legacy will be picked up by pandemic fans almost exclusively, so gets an overwhelmingly positive response. It has a whopping 1004 votes, peanuts really, but the charts don't have much inertia for vote number, imo. That is how things rise quickly. It is also why the ratings needs to be taken with a large grain of salt, they do not consider number of votes/ratings highly.

You can almost argue this is why expansions don't get to chart, and that this is an expansion (albeit a stand-alone expansion).
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Cameron McKenzie
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Kiraboshi wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
There is plenty of strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Most of the time, new rules are introduced between sessions and not during them (although that isn't always the case). These sessions are just as strategic as a regular game of pandemic, except the rule set is a bit different (but known) and there are long term consequences to each outbreak and some small incentives to eradicate or make labs in specific places.


There is no strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Let's say I want to treat disease in Baghdad but you want me to fly to Seoul... how to decide among these options? I could argue that if we let Baghdad outbreak then the world will explode... what do you or could you have to say to that? Any argument you offer against it would be premised on "well, the designer wouldn't make the game work like that." That supports my point about Legacy games being more about the mental lives of designers, not about strategy.

I would like to call upon users Hobbess, Daybreak, nebyeh, R3DSH1FT, and TylerGoble1 to come and support their viewpoint rather than thumbing-up an insulting throwaway image macro to imply that I'm talking nonsense.


Because the trigger for the next Legacy card is common knowledge, and it usually says "Before the start of the first game in X" or "After the first game in X". In most game sessions, there is no possibility for a legacy card to be drawn, and the players are aware of this fact.
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Cameron McKenzie
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Another thing is that you could go ahead and spoil yourself on all of the content in Pandemic Legacy in advance so there are no surprises, and it would still work fine as a game.

The game isn't completely dependent on everything being a surprise. A lot of people finished Pandemic Legacy and wanted to play it a second time even though every single thing was spoiled to them the first time through.
 
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Nicholas Palmer
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It is very clear he has no idea how Pandemic Legacy plays.
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Tyler Gobe
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Kiraboshi wrote:
I would like to call upon users Hobbess, Daybreak, nebyeh, R3DSH1FT, and TylerGoble1 to come and support their viewpoint...


Oaky! I have yet to play the game, so I don't have a total knowledge of the game. I have watched a number of reviews and early game play-throughs, however, so I have a pretty sound knowledge of how it works.

Kiraboshi wrote:
Pandemic Legacy has no strategy because you don't even know the rules


As MasterDinadan said:

MasterDinadan wrote:
There is plenty of strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Most of the time, new rules are introduced between sessions and not during them (although that isn't always the case). These sessions are just as strategic as a regular game of pandemic, except the rule set is a bit different (but known) and there are long term consequences to each outbreak and some small incentives to eradicate or make labs in specific places.

'Nuff said.

Kiraboshi wrote:
Pandemic Legacy is a non-game activity and a really pointless and droll one at that. Why should I feel anything in particular about the occurrence of some outcome drawn from an unconstrained and arbitrary universe of possibilities that exists only in the designers head?


This is where you really lose me. Did you have a bad card draw or something? There are defiantly twists and turns in the game, but you'd be hard pressed to call them "unconstrained" or "arbitrary". All of the design choices I've seen have been thematic and deliberate, adding surprises and twists to Pandemic. We Didn't Playtest This At All this is not.

Kiraboshi wrote:
There is no strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Let's say I want to treat disease in Baghdad but you want me to fly to Seoul... how to decide among these options? I could argue that if we let Baghdad outbreak then the world will explode...


Is this that different from vanilla Pandemic? You earlier held that up as fine example of strategy. I'm lost as to what point you're attempting to make here...

Kiraboshi wrote:
... what do you or could you have to say to that? Any argument you offer against it would be premised on "well, the designer wouldn't make the game work like that."


The argument could be "Well, Seoul is getting bad too, we need to take care of it" or "Yeah, but Player 2 is near by, he can take care of it" or "The Baghdad card just got played, we should have some time". If you're playing with experienced or intelligent players, they probably won't come up with pointless strategies. If you play with players who do, that's hardly the designers fault.

Kiraboshi wrote:
I would like to call upon users Hobbess, Daybreak, nebyeh, R3DSH1FT, and TylerGoble1 to come and support their viewpoint rather than thumbing-up an insulting throwaway image macro to imply that I'm talking nonsense.


You're right, what kind of person would throw insults around on this message board?

Kiraboshi wrote:
This isn't remedial reading hour. You may have to use certain skills of comprehension to understand my posts, which contain ideas rather than just feels.


Oh...

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Mathue Faulkner
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Kiraboshi wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
There is plenty of strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Most of the time, new rules are introduced between sessions and not during them (although that isn't always the case). These sessions are just as strategic as a regular game of pandemic, except the rule set is a bit different (but known) and there are long term consequences to each outbreak and some small incentives to eradicate or make labs in specific places.


There is no strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Let's say I want to treat disease in Baghdad but you want me to fly to Seoul... how to decide among these options? I could argue that if we let Baghdad outbreak then the world will explode... what do you or could you have to say to that? Any argument you offer against it would be premised on "well, the designer wouldn't make the game work like that." That supports my point about Legacy games being more about the mental lives of designers, not about strategy.

I would like to call upon users Hobbess, Daybreak, nebyeh, R3DSH1FT, and TylerGoble1 to come and support their viewpoint rather than thumbing-up an insulting throwaway image macro to imply that I'm talking nonsense.

I've completed the game. From your comments, it's clear that you don't actually have an understanding of how the Legacy concept has been applied to Pandemic. 99% of the time, there are not any mid-session spoilers. I'd argue that there is actually a lot MORE strategy in Pandemic Legacy because there is a metagame involved. From the outset, players understand the ramifications of what effect an outbreak will have in future sessions, and as such, choices carry a much heavier weight. The ramifications of simple decisions like you posit in your original post are known from the outset. All major, game changing events happen in between sessions. It sounds like you enjoy Pandemic, so I hope that you look into what the Legacy concept really is in regards to Pandemic. Hell, Dice Tower is posting their sessions. You could watch a spoiler filled video of January to give yourself an idea of what the concept entails...
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Mathue Faulkner
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matthean wrote:
7 Wonders was the last to skyrocket like Legacy has. There are, however, far more games out now so it is more impressive. I'm still not sure Pandemic with a plot is really that much better of a game.

Honestly, I think it is that much better of an experience. I'm sure there will be many who disagree, but my wife and I just played Legacy 16 times over the last few weeks, and I'm contemplating buying a 2nd copy of the game. It's not just the plot though. It's how the permanence affects your immediate decisions. As players, we just cared more about every decision. I don't know that it's my number one game (pretty sure that it's not), but it's easily my number one gaming experience.

Oh, and 7 Wonders skyrocketed, but still not as impressively as Pandemic Legacy has...at least in terms of the jumps in ranking that it's making from day to day, as well as the average rating.
https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/60287/item/1449067#item14...
https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/195052/item/4208019#item4...
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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CasualSax wrote:
It has happened before.

The most notable example is Monkey Auto Races, which literally went from obscurity one day to international fame at the number one slot the next.

My Little Pony Hide & Seek had a similar thing...
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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darthain wrote:
It is because pandemic legacy will be picked up by pandemic fans almost exclusively, so gets an overwhelmingly positive response. It has a whopping 1004 votes, peanuts really, but the charts don't have much inertia for vote number, imo. That is how things rise quickly. It is also why the ratings needs to be taken with a large grain of salt, they do not consider number of votes/ratings highly.

You can almost argue this is why expansions don't get to chart, and that this is an expansion (albeit a stand-alone expansion).

Even still, it's pretty crazy that 47% of voters have given the game a 10. I agree that it benefits from being a spinoff of sorts. Having said that, note other top ten games: Caverna (Agricola spinoff), Android: Netrunner (Netrunner reimplentation), and Star Wars: Imperial Assault (Descent re-theme and reimplentation)...
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mfaulk80 wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
There is plenty of strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Most of the time, new rules are introduced between sessions and not during them (although that isn't always the case). These sessions are just as strategic as a regular game of pandemic, except the rule set is a bit different (but known) and there are long term consequences to each outbreak and some small incentives to eradicate or make labs in specific places.


There is no strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Let's say I want to treat disease in Baghdad but you want me to fly to Seoul... how to decide among these options? I could argue that if we let Baghdad outbreak then the world will explode... what do you or could you have to say to that? Any argument you offer against it would be premised on "well, the designer wouldn't make the game work like that." That supports my point about Legacy games being more about the mental lives of designers, not about strategy.

I would like to call upon users Hobbess, Daybreak, nebyeh, R3DSH1FT, and TylerGoble1 to come and support their viewpoint rather than thumbing-up an insulting throwaway image macro to imply that I'm talking nonsense.

I've completed the game. From your comments, it's clear that you don't actually have an understanding of how the Legacy concept has been applied to Pandemic. 99% of the time, there are not any mid-session spoilers. I'd argue that there is actually a lot MORE strategy in Pandemic Legacy because there is a metagame involved. From the outset, players understand the ramifications of what effect an outbreak will have in future sessions, and as such, choices carry a much heavier weight. The ramifications of simple decisions like you posit in your original post are known from the outset. All major, game changing events happen in between sessions. It sounds like you enjoy Pandemic, so I hope that you look into what the Legacy concept really is in regards to Pandemic. Hell, Dice Tower is posting their sessions. You could watch a spoiler filled video of January to give yourself an idea of what the concept entails...

I watched the January and February sessions when those were released, and I've skimmed several others since then. I don't know what makes you think I would presume to judge it without knowing anything about it. There's nothing in my posts that factually misrepresents what Pandemic Legacy is like. It's all in your head.

Unfortunately I can't rebut in detail what you say about all the game-changing events happening between sessions without invoking spoilers. There's one such event that happens part-way through an early session (pertaining to one of the diseases in particular) that shapes the entirety of the rest of the game to a staggering extent. I am really left to assume bad faith in your adherence to this line of argument, because it's so obviously untrue.

However, nothing that I said actually depends on whether new rules are introduced during or between sessions. I never made a claim one way or another on this point. It is an irrelevant detail that has been fixated upon as a distraction.
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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Kiraboshi wrote:

I watched the January and February sessions when those were released, and I've skimmed several others since then. I don't know what makes you think I would presume to judge it without knowing anything about it. There's nothing in my posts that factually misrepresents what Pandemic Legacy is like. It's all in your head.

Almost everything in your posts factually misrepresent what Pandemic Legacy is like. You state that there is "no strategy." Really? Even from the standpoint of your argument, that is a ridiculous hyperbole and "factually misrepresents what Pandemic Legacy is like." You state that one doesn't even know the rules. That's simply not true. You don't know the rules for future sessions, but you absolutely know the rules for the current month that you're playing. Your entire paragraph about treating Baghdad or Seoul makes absolutely no sense. The only difference is weighing the pros/cons between an immediate concern vs negative long term effects. There is not any storyline that makes one city better/worse than the other. I understand that argument is basically "well, the designer could've thrown that in"...but that's just nonsensical IMO. As someone else said, you could go ahead and spoil the entire Legacy deck. It would still be a fun experience. As a matter of fact, we're thinking about buying a 2nd game and running through it at a higher difficulty level just because the experience was so awesome.

Regardless, I can see how this conversation will likely head, so I'm bowing out. It's a bit unfortunate that I was sucked into it in the first place...
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Mathue Faulkner
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Okay, you edited since I started my reply.
Kiraboshi wrote:

Unfortunately I can't rebut in detail what you say about all the game-changing events happening between sessions without invoking spoilers. There's one such event that happens part-way through an early session (pertaining to one of the diseases in particular) that shapes the entirety of the rest of the game to a staggering extent. I am really left to assume bad faith in your adherence to this line of argument, because it's so obviously untrue.
That event that you're speaking of is one of two (I believe) things that do shape the game mid-session. Honestly, it happens so ridiculously early in that first game, that it really doesn't have much (if any) of an effect on strategy. Almost nothing has happened at that point in the game.

Kiraboshi wrote:
However, nothing that I said actually depends on whether new rules are introduced during or between sessions. I never made a claim one way or another on this point. It is an irrelevant detail that has been fixated upon as a distraction.

Your only critiques seem to center on how strategy can be invalidated mid-game by the introduction of some new rule. So no, I don't see it as a distraction from your point. You may not have specified that you don't like the idea of the game changing mid-session, but your arguments don't hold any water in any other scenario.




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TylerGoble1 wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
I would like to call upon users Hobbess, Daybreak, nebyeh, R3DSH1FT, and TylerGoble1 to come and support their viewpoint...


Oaky! I have yet to play the game, so I don't have a total knowledge of the game. I have watched a number of reviews and early game play-throughs, however, so I have a pretty sound knowledge of how it works.

Kiraboshi wrote:
Pandemic Legacy has no strategy because you don't even know the rules


As MasterDinadan said:

MasterDinadan wrote:
There is plenty of strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Most of the time, new rules are introduced between sessions and not during them (although that isn't always the case). These sessions are just as strategic as a regular game of pandemic, except the rule set is a bit different (but known) and there are long term consequences to each outbreak and some small incentives to eradicate or make labs in specific places.

'Nuff said.

New rules coming between sessions, aside from having very significant exceptions, doesn't rebut what I said about not knowing the rules. Previously unknown rules may be introduced during or between sessions, but either way they were unknown rules. He says himself that there are "long term consequences" — meaning that the rules of future sessions are relevant to evaluating the consequences of actions in the current session — but one does not know the rules of future sessions. All told this is nothing but a red herring and far from "'Nuff said" it does nothing at all to even slightly mitigate my argument.

TylerGoble1 wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
Pandemic Legacy is a non-game activity and a really pointless and droll one at that. Why should I feel anything in particular about the occurrence of some outcome drawn from an unconstrained and arbitrary universe of possibilities that exists only in the designers head?


This is where you really lose me. Did you have a bad card draw or something? There are defiantly twists and turns in the game, but you'd be hard pressed to call them "unconstrained" or "arbitrary". All of the design choices I've seen have been thematic and deliberate, adding surprises and twists to Pandemic. We Didn't Playtest This At All this is not.

Kiraboshi wrote:
There is no strategy in Pandemic Legacy. Let's say I want to treat disease in Baghdad but you want me to fly to Seoul... how to decide among these options? I could argue that if we let Baghdad outbreak then the world will explode...


Is this that different from vanilla Pandemic? You earlier held that up as fine example of strategy. I'm lost as to what point you're attempting to make here...

I am lost as to how you are lost. The world doesn't explode in vanilla pandemic. In vanilla pandemic every possible outcome is spelled out in the rule book that each player is free to consult and is expected to be familiar with before the game begins.

TylerGoble1 wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
... what do you or could you have to say to that? Any argument you offer against it would be premised on "well, the designer wouldn't make the game work like that."


The argument could be "Well, Seoul is getting bad too, we need to take care of it" or "Yeah, but Player 2 is near by, he can take care of it" or "The Baghdad card just got played, we should have some time". If you're playing with experienced or intelligent players, they probably won't come up with pointless strategies. If you play with players who do, that's hardly the designers fault.

Those are all strategic considerations. The point of my hypothetical was to show that strategy doesn't exist in Pandemic Legacy, and I will have succeeded if all these strategic considerations can be brushed aside and you are left unable to offer any strategic consideration against Mr. Baghdad's fixation on treating Baghdad. Well, if you consult my post, you will see I did offer a means to brush aside these apparent strategic considerations. Mr. Baghdad thinks that if you don't treat Baghdad the world will explode. Future rules could specify that this is the case. Their content is unknown. Any argument you offer against Mr. Baghdad will be based on your belief that the designer wouldn't make the world explode just because you didn't treat Baghdad, but that's not a strategic consideration. It's a psychoanalysis of the designer. That was exactly my point.
 
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mfaulk80 wrote:
Regardless, I can see how this conversation will likely head, so I'm bowing out. It's a bit unfortunate that I was sucked into it in the first place...

I am also sorry that you have responded to me, because your replies are unworthy of mine, devoid of logical structure and tiresome to read. You should have recognized this and omitted them. I'm glad we can agree that you should not contradict me in any way. Have a nice day.
 
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