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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: A couple questions on leaders, range, and weapons rss

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Michael Wheeler
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I think I have the rules for this game mostly sorted out, but need clarification on a few.

1. When you activate a leader to group fire on a target, the group can only fire as far as the leader's range, correct?

2. If you activate a non-leader, can adjacent units join in on a normal fire action to fire together?

3. If a unit does not have the range to reach a target but they're with a non-artillery weapon that does have the range, can an attack be made?

4. How does weapon fire work, exactly? Does it replace the using unit's fire, or does it fire in addition to the unit's fire power? Or are they two separate attacks?

I've been through the rule book and these forums, but these ones are eluding me. Thanks so much!
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Herb Boutilier
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Michael,
I'm still learning the rules too. but i think i have some of them down pretty good thanks to a very skilled PBEM opponent who is helping me. for your question 4.. if a squad decides to fire a MG for example, you use the FP of one of the two, either the MG or squad, obviously pick the one with the highest FP, then add one FP for the other unit. for example. if the MG has a FP of 8, and the squad has a FP of 6, you use the MG as the base firing unit, so FP of 8, then add 1 for the squad, so the total attack would be a 9. (this is assuming there are no modifiers such as a leader in the hex). (the range of the target has to be within both the mg's and squad's range for both of them to fire). If the target were beyond the squads range, but within the MG's range, you would just use the FP of the MG on your attack, in this case an 8. Leaders affect MG's too, so if there was a "2" leader in the hex, the 8 MG in this example would be an 8 +2 for the leader=10, then add 1 for the squad for total attack of 11. If the target were also in range of the leader, add 1 more for him as well.
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Jacovis
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Just to add a little to Paul's post:

Gunderian007 wrote:
You are pretty far off on everything.

1. Every unit has it's own range which is it's own limit.
See O20.2.2 Targeting Range (p. 12) and O20.3.1 Fire Groups (p. 12)

Quote:
2. On your turn No. It is possible to create a Firegroup(FG) this way when using opportunity fire. Read the rules again on these both.
See O20.3.1 Fire Groups (p. 12) and 3.3.1 Command (p. 5) - A leader must be activated to activate more than one unit at a time. Also, an activated unit also activates its weapon so you could fire with the unit and the weapon separately if you were so inclined.

Quote:
3. Once again, every unit and the One Weapon they carry have distinct numbers, including range. These only relate if you are making an FG. Ordinance never FG, even with other ordinance.
See O20.3 Fire Attack (p. 12) It specifically mentions each "piece" which is different from a "unit" in that a piece may be a unit, leader, hero, or weapon.

Quote:
4. Every weapon or unit can fire by itself ON YOUR TURN. If you combine units with legal ranges, Los, & activation as a FG, use those rules. This is required as Opportunity Fire. You will start with the largest Firepower unit and add 1 for each added unit/ weapon.
See the previous answers for more details, but essentially, as Paul said, each piece can fire separately or as part of a fire group, but each piece that participates in a fire group must be a) activated by a Leader, b) have range to the target, and c) have LOS to the target.

Example:

You activate a leader with a command of 1, and he activates all of the units in the 1 hex range around him, all of which have LOS, and the goal is to fire at a target 7 hexes away. Of the activated units, all are armed with non-ordnance weapons with ranges of 10, but the units themselves only have ranges of 5. This means that you can form a fire group using all of the weapons to fire at that target, but the units themselves are out of range so may not be included in the fire group.

It is important to note the things Paul mentioned about Opportunity Fire and Ordnance weapons.

Read about them in:

Quote:
O20.3.1.1
.
Ordnance—
Weapons with a white
band must always fire alone and thus can
never be assigned as part of a Fire Group
and

A33.2 Op Fire Procedure (whole section)

Enjoy the game, it's one of my all-time favorites. Cheers!
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davide pessach
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Gunderian007 wrote:
You are pretty far off on everything.

2. On your turn No. It is possible to create a Firegroup(FG) this way when using opportunity fire. Read the rules again on these both.

.
I think this could be misleading. Group fire are created in opportunity fire exactly the same way than in normal fire procedure, as the rulebook states; so I guess you always have to activate a leader which activates the units in the fire group.
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Mark Buetow
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patgarret77 wrote:
Gunderian007 wrote:
You are pretty far off on everything.

2. On your turn No. It is possible to create a Firegroup(FG) this way when using opportunity fire. Read the rules again on these both.

.
I think this could be misleading. Group fire are created in opportunity fire exactly the same way than in normal fire procedure, as the rulebook states; so I guess you always have to activate a leader which activates the units in the fire group.
Not quite...

During Opportunity Fire, you could have several units in a fire group without activating a leader if a separate Fire Action was used to activate each unit.
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Michael Wheeler
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Thanks so much everyone. I tend to have trouble with GMT rule books (Dominant Species aside) and usually miss details until they're pointed out during play. I'm playing my first real games of CC this weekend and your help has really straightened things out for me!
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Jon Gautier

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Quote:
I tend to have trouble with GMT rule books (Dominant Species aside)
My pedantic self could not let this go: GMT rulebooks are written and edited by many, many different people--there is no "house style." There will likely be similarity among rules from the same design/development team, but that is about it. Note the designer of Combat Commander is also the designer of Dominant Species.
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Michael Wheeler
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I got to play three games today with experienced players and I think I've got everything sorted out. Thanks for all the help!
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Keegan Fink
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What I like best about the Combat Commander rulebooks is that they leave little to the imagination — they say what they mean, and they mean what they say, nothing more and nothing less. Interpret them literally, as written, and apply accordingly.

Best of luck! The answers above seem to have you covered.
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JIM MCFETRIDGE
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For units and weapons in the same hex as a leader, does each unit and non-ordnance weapon receive +1/+2 from the command of the leader or do you add +1/+2 to the total FP of your lead piece and other pieces?
 
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David Lanphear
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In a fire group the command bonus for FP is added once to the fire group IF the primary unit/weapon is within the leader's hex.

But if all those units and weapons fired individually one after another, then all units and non-ordinance weapons in the same hex as the leader could receive the command bonus separately.
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Russ Williams
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mcfetridgej wrote:
For units and weapons in the same hex as a leader, does each unit and non-ordnance weapon receive +1/+2 from the command of the leader or do you add +1/+2 to the total FP of your lead piece and other pieces?
rule 3.3.1.2 wrote:
A Leader’s Command
number is added directly to the FP, Range,
Movement and Morale of all friendly Squads
and Teams (only) as long as those units are
in the same hex with the Leader
Note "all".

(And similarly for 3.3.1.3 re: weapons.)

But to clarify a possible confusion you might be having: if you're making a group attack (i.e. with more than one piece firing at the same time), then you only use the firepower of the single base firing piece; all other pieces contribute simply +1 each to the total firepower of the attack (O20.3.1.2 Group FP).

(PS: I wrote "piece", not "unit", to include weapons in that explanation.)
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JIM MCFETRIDGE
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Thank you.
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Laurence Cutner
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Another 'leaders' question that's been bugging me. The rules seem clear, but I want to be sure. If a leader activates units within his range on a 'move' order and one unit also is stacked with a leader, can that leader be moved with that unit?
 
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Michael Olsen
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lcutner wrote:
Another 'leaders' question that's been bugging me. The rules seem clear, but I want to be sure. If a leader activates units within his range on a 'move' order and one unit also is stacked with a leader, can that leader be moved with that unit?
Yes, but they can not split up.

O21.2: "The movement of one unit must be completed
in its entirety before another activated unit
can begin moving. The one exception is that
activated units that begin a Move Order in
the same hex may be moved together provided
those units remain together throughout
the entirety of that Move Order"

Edit: As Russ says below, you can of course only move a leader that is activated, which in turn means it has to the leader that originally activated the unit.
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Russ Williams
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lcutner wrote:
Another 'leaders' question that's been bugging me. The rules seem clear, but I want to be sure. If a leader activates units within his range on a 'move' order and one unit also is stacked with a leader, can that leader be moved with that unit?
If you mean stacked with a different leader (not the one whom you activated and who then activates nearby units), then no, you cannot move that leader, because leaders cannot activate other leaders. (3.3.1.1 When a Leader is activated, however, it has the ability to further activate all, some or none of the friendly non-Leader units within its Command’s “Radius”)

If you mean can the same leader whom you activated, and who then activates other units, move with those other activated units, then yes, he can (as long as they all start in the same hex, i.e. not units whom he activates in other nearby hexes).
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