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Subject: Collector edition and rules changes rss

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Thierry Aradan
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When comparing the latest rulebook (released with the collector edition), with the previous living one (May 29, 2013), I noticed (3) 2 changes: one major, one minor and one I suspect to be a loophole.

A) Major one first: Now, a flipped Hacendado may only be assassinated during a Topple, never during your actions. Cost is also different.

B) Minor change: It is no longer allowed to flip your Hacendado to allow a troop to retreat here as a Private Army. Your Hacendado must already have been flipped earlier, which can only take place during Toppling. (This was the original rule, up to may 2013)

C) Last one: G.4.(3) Sacking. “If the destination is an enterprise with no cubes, it is sacked. This returns your troop to your Hand.
This last sentence is not consistent with the “Sack” definition in the Glossary. “The owner of the extorting troop decides if it is discarded or Retreated”.

Effects like regime change, adding unrest, only occur when a troop is first played (i.e. played from your Hand…). This rule gives your troop the ability to implement these effects several times.
And it stays in your hand, safe from strifes.

Is it intentional?

Thierry

Edited... my mistake when comparing several old living rules documents and both rulebooks soblue
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Rich James
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I wonder why these rule changes in the first place. I hadn't run into any issues related to these topics when using the original rules.
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Martin G
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Thierry Aradan wrote:
A) Major one first: Now, a flipped Hacendado may only be assassinated during a Topple, never during your actions. Cost is also different.
In all my (70-something) plays of Pax P, I have never seen a hacendado assassination (the old way) carried out. I think Phil was looking for a way to make this action more relevant. I'm not sure how well it will work, but it's easy enough to house rule if you don't like the new version.

Quote:
B) Minor change: It is no longer allowed to flip your Hacendado to allow a troop to retreat here as a Private Army. Your Hacendado must already have been flipped earlier, which can only take place during Toppling. (This was the original rule, up to may 2013)
Huh? This doesn't appear to have changed in the new rules. The glossary for 'Retreat' says "If the enterprise your troop occupies is lost, you must either discard the troop or Retreat it into your Private Army. To retreat, flip your Hacendado to the same Faction Color as the Retreating troop".

Quote:
C) Last one: G.4.(3) Sacking. “If the destination is an enterprise with no cubes, it is sacked. This returns your troop to your Hand.
This last sentence is not consistent with the “Sack” definition in the Glossary. “The owner of the extorting troop decides if it is discarded or Retreated”.
Yeah, this seems to be a mistake. Per the Glossary, it's the Enterprise that goes back into hand (not discarded) and the Troop can either be discarded or retreated.
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qwertymartin wrote:
Thierry Aradan wrote:
A) Major one first: Now, a flipped Hacendado may only be assassinated during a Topple, never during your actions. Cost is also different.
In all my (70-something) plays of Pax P, I have never seen a hacendado assassination (the old way) carried out. I think Phil was looking for a way to make this action more relevant. I'm not sure how well it will work, but it's easy enough to house rule if you don't like the new version.
.
I straight up saw this in my second play. But we WERE playing with the one who gets free black cards, so it was a bloodbath.
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Martin G
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hanibalicious wrote:
I straight up saw this in my second play. But we WERE playing with the one who gets free black cards, so it was a bloodbath.
It costs $10 to remove one prestige point *and* give them their starting income back. There's almost always a cheaper way.
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Martin G
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qwertymartin wrote:
Thierry Aradan wrote:
A) Major one first: Now, a flipped Hacendado may only be assassinated during a Topple, never during your actions. Cost is also different.
In all my (70-something) plays of Pax P, I have never seen a hacendado assassination (the old way) carried out. I think Phil was looking for a way to make this action more relevant. I'm not sure how well it will work, but it's easy enough to house rule if you don't like the new version.
Reading it carefully, since it's the player who initiates the topple who gets the final chance to assassinate, I think it will make Toppling successfully slightly easier. That player can also flip without any risk of being assassinated, since everyone else has already made their topple decisions.
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qwertymartin wrote:
hanibalicious wrote:
I straight up saw this in my second play. But we WERE playing with the one who gets free black cards, so it was a bloodbath.
It costs $10 to remove one prestige point *and* give them their starting income back. There's almost always a cheaper way.
We CLEARLY effed up a rule.
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Thierry Aradan
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Hello Martin,

Concerning B) this sentence appeared in the living rules (May 05, 2013). Glossary section, Retreat:

To Retreat, flip your Hacendado Card to the same Faction Color as the Retreating troop (if not already so flipped, and if this color is available on your card), and immediately pay the Redeployment Cost.

Hacendado's assassination happened a couple of times in my games.

qwertymartin wrote:

It costs $10 to remove one prestige point *and* give them their starting income back. There's almost always a cheaper way.
Do not forget that it also gives you more leeway for playing other factions, as strifes leave no choices once your Hacendado has been flipped.
I have ever seen one assassination with a straw man for that purpose.

With the old rule, the fact that an Hacendado protected by a Private Army was immune from assassination was probably too restrictive. The increased cost rule seems interesting, although a Private Army could become a tempting target for 3$...

qwertymartin wrote:
Reading it carefully, since it's the player who initiates the topple who gets the final chance to assassinate, I think it will make Toppling successfully slightly easier. That player can also flip without any risk of being assassinated, since everyone else has already made their topple decisions.
Yes, limiting those assassinations to Topples leaves me perplexed, giving the order of play a huge impact.
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Martin G
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Thierry Aradan wrote:

Concerning B) this sentence appeared in the living rules (May 05, 2013). Glossary section, Retreat:

To Retreat, flip your Hacendado Card to the same Faction Color as the Retreating troop (if not already so flipped, and if this color is available on your card), and immediately pay the Redeployment Cost.
Yes, and I can't find anything that contradicts this in the new rules.
 
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Brian Pierce
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I don't know if this is best place to ask this, but since it relates to flipping your Hacendado I will ask here.

During a topple, do each of the players perform all 3 of the possible actions (flipping Hacendado, discarding cards to boost Diaz, and assassination of a Hacendado) one at a time?

So in a 2 player game, if Player A initiates the topple Player B must take these three actions first. This means that Assassination of a Hacendado isn't possible if Player B hasn't flipped yet.
 
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Martin G
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Yes, that's right.
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Warren Smith
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So what is the new rule exactly?
Committed hacendados can only be assassinated during a topple and it costs $3 and private army no longer protects. Have I missed anything?
 
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Martin G
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h00sha wrote:
So what is the new rule exactly?
Committed hacendados can only be assassinated during a topple and it costs $3 and private army no longer protects. Have I missed anything?
It's $3 plus $3 per troop in the private army.
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Bernhard Vierthaler
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qwertymartin wrote:
Reading it carefully, since it's the player who initiates the topple who gets the final chance to assassinate, I think it will make Toppling successfully slightly easier. That player can also flip without any risk of being assassinated, since everyone else has already made their topple decisions.
It´s a little change, but I like it a lot. I always found it a little bit too hard to topple with experienced players and I didn´t really like it, that the Gold Victory strategy seemed to be too strong.

Now, maybe that is because we don´t play it well enough, I don´t know. But according to this new rule (that Player Assassination is obligatory linked to the "topple showdown round") I would agree with Martin here: for me it also does this two things:

1.) It makes Player Assassination a more interesting option.

2.) It makes topples slightly easier.
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Jorik
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Try playing with more then three players.
That makes the topple sometimes very easy. I've won on the first type quote a few times when paying with 5. Just buy the right cards and the command win is quite easy.
 
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Bernhard Vierthaler
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Yes, most of the time we are three players. I will try it with more for sure.
 
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Bernhard Vierthaler
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Thierry Aradan wrote:
When comparing the latest rulebook (released with the collector edition), with the previous living one (May 29, 2013), I noticed (3) 2 changes: one major, one minor and one I suspect to be a loophole.

A) Major one first: Now, a flipped Hacendado may only be assassinated during a Topple, never during your actions. Cost is also different.

B) Minor change: It is no longer allowed to flip your Hacendado to allow a troop to retreat here as a Private Army. Your Hacendado must already have been flipped earlier, which can only take place during Toppling. (This was the original rule, up to may 2013)

C) Last one: G.4.(3) Sacking. “If the destination is an enterprise with no cubes, it is sacked. This returns your troop to your Hand.
This last sentence is not consistent with the “Sack” definition in the Glossary. “The owner of the extorting troop decides if it is discarded or Retreated”.

Effects like regime change, adding unrest, only occur when a troop is first played (i.e. played from your Hand…). This rule gives your troop the ability to implement these effects several times.
And it stays in your hand, safe from strifes.

Is it intentional?

Thierry

Edited... my mistake when comparing several old living rules documents and both rulebooks soblue
So B and C are no changes (C was confirmed by Phil to be an error in the second edition rules).

But A IS a change and there is another one:

"Further, a Chain Railroad allows you to ignore the Jurisdiction limits for federal troops (these are green in color). (Building a Chain Railroad represents a rail line linking Sonora with Chihuahua over the Sierra Madre [...])"

It is now allowed to also deploy green troops in America when you have built a chain Railroad. I don´t know yet, if I will implement this new rule. Phil´s explanation:

phileklund wrote:


This is a rules change to the Collector's edition. It was intended to make the rule simpler and easier to remember and summarize. And does indeed allow Federal troops to be played in America.

The incident behind this rule occurred in the Nov 1915 battle for Agua Prieta in Sonora. Up to this date, Pancho Villa had been the most pro-American of the revolutionaries, and had come to an agreement with U.S. hacendados operating in Chihuahua. However, President Wilson, following a political agenda of his own, decided to recognize the regime of Carranza, Villa's sworn enemy. Moreover, he allowed 3500 of Carranza's to take the El Paso Southwest railroad from Chihuahua to Sonora, through America. There was really no other way for them to get from Chihuahua to Sonora, as Villa held the few mountain passes between the two states. As a result, Villa was crushed at Agua Prieta and never again controlled a sizable army. It was a Pearl Harbor moment for him when he was informed after the battle that the Americans had recognized the Carranza regime and had allowed reinforcement of Agua Prieta.

(As an aside, two future presidents of Mexico were in the battle on the Carranzista side).

Now the El Paso SW is a chain rail in the game, so the straightforward interpretation is that the Federales were able to use this chain to get from Sonora to Chihuahua. This led to the original wording of the rule.

The new wording, allowing the Federales not only to travel through America but to actually deploy there, would require even more duplicity by the American President. On one hand, it may seem unlikely that even someone like Wilson would allow such, and it would require total anarchy for this to occur. Yet, had the U.S. troops been sent in strength to the WWI front, and had the Villa invasion of New Mexico been better planned, its conceivable that Carrancista troops could have entered America to fight.

The original rule is the more historic one, and some may prefer this rule, but I decided on the change in the name of rules parsimony and alternate history, a history more symmetric in the region between Mexico and the USA.
It definitely makes the chain railroads more powerful. How do you guys like this change?

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Bernhard Vierthaler wrote:

It definitely makes the chain railroads more powerful. How do you guys like this change?
I never got to play enough games with the original chain rail rule to be able to discern any noticeable difference. I assume it's highly situational with a) chain rail connections being very expensive, and b) the high variability of the amount of both American enterprises and Federal Troop cards in the play deck.

I guess "always keep an orange card in hand" is the best strategy if you go heavy US enterprise with this rule in effect.
 
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