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Subject: Basement Secret Passage connections. rss

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Blue Fox

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Hello!

I have a question about secret passage and basement tile placement. Is it possible to connect a basement room to another room via only a secret passage and not a stairway? I may have overlooked something in the rulebook, but I saw nothing directly confirming or denying this.

Thank you!
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Dave Roy
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BlueFox57 wrote:
Hello!

I have a question about secret passage and basement tile placement. Is it possible to connect a basement room to another room via only a secret passage and not a stairway? I may have overlooked something in the rulebook, but I saw nothing directly confirming or denying this.

Thank you!
You can't connect downstairs rooms to upstairs rooms.

Secret passages are just another way to connect two rooms.

So I don't see the need to explicitly say that it's not possible. I don't have the rulebook in front of me, so maybe it does, though.
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Blue Fox

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hist wrote:
BlueFox57 wrote:
Hello!

I have a question about secret passage and basement tile placement. Is it possible to connect a basement room to another room via only a secret passage and not a stairway? I may have overlooked something in the rulebook, but I saw nothing directly confirming or denying this.

Thank you!
You can't connect downstairs rooms to upstairs rooms.

Secret passages are just another way to connect two rooms.

So I don't see the need to explicitly say that it's not possible. I don't have the rulebook in front of me, so maybe it does, though.
The only reason we considered it is because of the sentence 'Secret Passages can be used to connect any two rooms.' found within the rulebook.

The sentence is vague enough to make my group question whether we would be able to have those secret passages lead downstairs or not.

Perhaps a truly mad king would have a secret passage from his library to the bottomless pit?
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BlueFox57 wrote:
The only reason we considered it is because of the sentence 'Secret Passages can be used to connect any two rooms.' found within the rulebook.

The sentence is vague enough to make my group question whether we would be able to have those secret passages lead downstairs or not.
There's another point in the rulebook which I find incredibly interesting: in the second paragraph, under Secret Passages we read (emphasis mine):

"This allows for all sorts of placements that otherwise could not be done"

I cannot think of anything more "undoable" than connecting the basement rooms to other rooms in the castle, so that I believe that collecting the two is a perfectly legit move.

If it's not the case, then it'd be nice to have an official clarification on the matter (and an explanation of the hereby quoted sentence)
 
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Andy Burgess
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Connecting a downstairs room to an upstairs room never means anything in terms of the score. All it would mean is that you could place a downstairs room without having to get stairs. Or that you could complete an upstairs room you wouldn't otherwise be able to complete.

Is that enough? For me, no. I wouldn't play that you could make this connection. Others may differ.
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MercifulBiscuit wrote:
Connecting a downstairs room to an upstairs room never means anything in terms of the score
Wrong. If by doing so you complete the upstairs room, all bonuses due to completing the room activate, so that this could really be relevant to the final score.

Beware, I'm not pretending this is a legit move, I'm just saying that there are no rules against this reading, so that it seems a legit move (then everyone is clearly free to interpret the rules as he likes)
 
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
MercifulBiscuit wrote:
Connecting a downstairs room to an upstairs room never means anything in terms of the score
Wrong. If by doing so you complete the upstairs room, all bonuses due to completing the room activate, so that this could really be relevant to the final score.
Hmm. What I meant was that no upstairs rooms have any connection bonuses for downstairs rooms (obviously!) and that the downstairs rooms points aren't connection bonuses anyway. So the score isn't directly affected. I also said this:

MercifulBiscuit wrote:
Or that you could complete an upstairs room you wouldn't otherwise be able to complete.
Which takes into account your point, I feel. Except that when I thought about it afterwards, it occurred to me that whilst possible, it would be very unlikely to have a situation such that you could use a downstairs room to complete where another room wouldn't fit.

Perhaps if you're the last player to build in a round of a four player game and there are only downstairs rooms left... Feels like bad planning (and bad pricing, because in this case you'd also be be master builder!), though - and not such a big deal, because you'll then be the first to build in the next round - unless it's the end of the game, which is making the situation I'm constructing even more unlikely.
 
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I agree with you about the really limited usefulness of the rule; I'm just trying to give sense to the part about connecting rooms otherwise not connectible written in the rules: can't figure a sense to that line because apart from connecting upstairs and downstairs, I don't see other otherwise illegal placements *question mark*

As for scoring.. could happen also before end game. Assume you use the secret passage to connect an Outdoor room to a downstairs room: it's a 10m free cashed immediately. Or you close a Yellow room and gain immediately an extra turn. And so on. True, you waste the x2 multipler of the passage, but you still have a gain that could have a sort of convenience.

Thematically, I don't see many problems in connecting upstairs and downstairs (au contrair: very often in castles we had secret passages leading to dungeons and so on).

In any case I don't have any problem in playing one way or the other; I just wish that the rulebook were more accurate on this, or that Ted could post an official ruling, that's all

Anyhoo, interesting debate And sorry if I look overpedantic
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Ken Sinn
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One interesting application of this would be to enable players to build a basement room directly from an upstairs room, in the event that stairs are no longer available on the market.

I would like an official ruling on this.
 
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mooken wrote:
One interesting application of this would be to enable players to build a basement room directly from an upstairs room, in the event that stairs are no longer available on the market.
I don't think this is possible. Rules say:

"Secret passages cannot be built unless both ends are connected to entrances"

This means both rooms need to be in play before the secret passage is built; hence, in some way you had to build stairs and place the downstairs room before bulding the secret passage leading to it
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Dave Roy
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
I agree with you about the really limited usefulness of the rule; I'm just trying to give sense to the part about connecting rooms otherwise not connectible written in the rules: can't figure a sense to that line because apart from connecting upstairs and downstairs, I don't see other otherwise illegal placements *question mark*

I think that line means more that there are room configurations where you couldn't connect two rooms (for example, maybe there wouldn't be enough space to squeeze the new room in normally but with the secret passage extending out, it gives you enough space do it).

I don't think it meant that you can suddenly connect a downstairs room to an upstairs room.
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BlueFox57 wrote:
Perhaps a truly mad king would have a secret passage from his library to the bottomless pit?
Love this to bits! made me laugh!
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Blue Fox

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MelodramaBabs wrote:
BlueFox57 wrote:
Perhaps a truly mad king would have a secret passage from his library to the bottomless pit?
Love this to bits! made me laugh!
Glad to provide humor!

Also, in case anyone was still curious, the official ruling from Ted Alspach seems to be that you CANNOT connect basement and main level rooms through secret passages.
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BlueFox57 wrote:
Glad to provide humor!

Also, in case anyone was still curious, the official ruling from Ted Alspach seems to be that you CANNOT connect basement and main level rooms through secret passages.
Any source? Sorry "seems" doesn't sound like "is".

Also, if this is the way to play, anyone has any idea about the question of linking rooms that are usually not allowed to be linked? I still trying to understand why such a wording was used
 
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
BlueFox57 wrote:
Glad to provide humor!

Also, in case anyone was still curious, the official ruling from Ted Alspach seems to be that you CANNOT connect basement and main level rooms through secret passages.
Any source? Sorry "seems" doesn't sound like "is".

Also, if this is the way to play, anyone has any idea about the question of linking rooms that are usually not allowed to be linked? I still trying to understand why such a wording was used
I gave you a pretty good example a few posts up.
 
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
BlueFox57 wrote:
Glad to provide humor!

Also, in case anyone was still curious, the official ruling from Ted Alspach seems to be that you CANNOT connect basement and main level rooms through secret passages.
Any source? Sorry "seems" doesn't sound like "is".

Also, if this is the way to play, anyone has any idea about the question of linking rooms that are usually not allowed to be linked? I still trying to understand why such a wording was used
I messaged Ted Alspach about this topic, and his response was:

"No, secret passages cannot be used to connect regular and downstairs rooms. :/"

That is about as verified as I can make it, unfortunately. I can't really direct source a private message.

As for "seems," that was due to my lazy proofreading of the post.
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hist wrote:
Scarlet Witch wrote:
BlueFox57 wrote:
Glad to provide humor!

Also, in case anyone was still curious, the official ruling from Ted Alspach seems to be that you CANNOT connect basement and main level rooms through secret passages.
Any source? Sorry "seems" doesn't sound like "is".

Also, if this is the way to play, anyone has any idea about the question of linking rooms that are usually not allowed to be linked? I still trying to understand why such a wording was used
I gave you a pretty good example a few posts up.
Yes, but I don't understand it, sorry.

Rules say (first paragraph of the dedicated section) that "Secret Passages cannot be built unless both ends are connected to entrances"

This to me means that both rooms must be on the board, and then the Secret Passage is added (otherwise you'd have the situation where you have a Secret Passage with one end on an entrance, and the other end loose). Consequently the configuration of the rooms is not subject to changes due to the secret passage being deployed or not.

Hence, either the end of the first paragraph is wrong, and you may a) place the Secret Passage and then b) place the room, or the other sentence, about connecting two otherwise unconnectable rooms, is non-sensical.

Sorry for nitpicking, I don't want to be rude or unpleasant, but this thing is driving me crazy I want to play by the rules, but rules have no sense (to me at least)
 
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BlueFox57 wrote:
Scarlet Witch wrote:
BlueFox57 wrote:
Glad to provide humor!

Also, in case anyone was still curious, the official ruling from Ted Alspach seems to be that you CANNOT connect basement and main level rooms through secret passages.
Any source? Sorry "seems" doesn't sound like "is".

Also, if this is the way to play, anyone has any idea about the question of linking rooms that are usually not allowed to be linked? I still trying to understand why such a wording was used
I messaged Ted Alspach about this topic, and his response was:

"No, secret passages cannot be used to connect regular and downstairs rooms. :/"

That is about as verified as I can make it, unfortunately. I can't really direct source a private message.

As for "seems," that was due to my lazy proofreading of the post.
Fair enough, thank you
 
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Dave Roy
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
hist wrote:
Scarlet Witch wrote:
BlueFox57 wrote:
Glad to provide humor!

Also, in case anyone was still curious, the official ruling from Ted Alspach seems to be that you CANNOT connect basement and main level rooms through secret passages.
Any source? Sorry "seems" doesn't sound like "is".

Also, if this is the way to play, anyone has any idea about the question of linking rooms that are usually not allowed to be linked? I still trying to understand why such a wording was used
I gave you a pretty good example a few posts up.
Yes, but I don't understand it, sorry.

Rules say (first paragraph of the dedicated section) that "Secret Passages cannot be built unless both ends are connected to entrances"
True

Scarlet Witch wrote:

This to me means that both rooms must be on the board, and then the Secret Passage is added (otherwise you'd have the situation where you have a Secret Passage with one end on an entrance, and the other end loose). Consequently the configuration of the rooms is not subject to changes due to the secret passage being deployed or not.

Hence, either the end of the first paragraph is wrong, and you may a) place the Secret Passage and then b) place the room, or the other sentence, about connecting two otherwise unconnectable rooms, is non-sensical.

Sorry for nitpicking, I don't want to be rude or unpleasant, but this thing is driving me crazy I want to play by the rules, but rules have no sense (to me at least)
Sorry, but that's not true.

Nowhere does it say that both rooms need to be placed already.

You can buy a room, and then as part of placing that room, use a secret passage to connect it. Thus, that satisfies the "both ends are connected to entrances" rule.

So if you buy a room but can't put it some place, you could use the long secret passage to then place that room in a different spot, still connected to the room you want to connect it to.

Does that make sense?
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hist wrote:
Sorry, but that's not true.

Nowhere does it say that both rooms need to be placed already.
Point is that for me this is implicit in the sentence "both ends must be connected to entrances", basically because you are not deploying the two tiles at the same time. So either you have both rooms in play, and thus the secret passage will have both ends connected, or you have the secret passage in play first, and the second end not connected.

Possibly, I'm completely overthinking this, but for me the sentence is very clear, and means exactly this: when I place the secret passage, I must connect both ends, otherwise I can't place it. The other tile is either deployed before (due to being connected to something else) or afterwards, but can't be deployed into "nothingness".

Still, I do believe your reading is the only one that makes sense, since otherwise secret passages will be the most difficult tile to deploy *ever* so that I'll play the way you suggest (but I still believe the rulebook is poorly worded )

Thanks for help!
 
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Scarlet Witch wrote:
hist wrote:
Sorry, but that's not true.

Nowhere does it say that both rooms need to be placed already.
Point is that for me this is implicit in the sentence "both ends must be connected to entrances", basically because you are not deploying the two tiles at the same time. So either you have both rooms in play, and thus the secret passage will have both ends connected, or you have the secret passage in play first, and the second end not connected.

Possibly, I'm completely overthinking this, but for me the sentence is very clear, and means exactly this: when I place the secret passage, I must connect both ends, otherwise I can't place it. The other tile is either deployed before (due to being connected to something else) or afterwards, but can't be deployed into "nothingness".

Still, I do believe your reading is the only one that makes sense, since otherwise secret passages will be the most difficult tile to deploy *ever* so that I'll play the way you suggest (but I still believe the rulebook is poorly worded )

Thanks for help!
You're welcome. I do think you're overthinking it, though.

I think you're missing this line from the rules: "Secret passages can be played at any time on a player's turn, whenever they place a room or collect $5000.

And if you look at the second example in the rulebook, your interpretation of the rule would mean that the circular living room could not have been placed.
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It's also worth noting that, as stated in other threads, that the "or collect $5000" part of the rule is incorrect and should be deleted. I'll leave it to the reader to find the other thread, since I'm not so hot with the cross-linking.
 
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medew wrote:
It's also worth noting that, as stated in other threads, that the "or collect $5000" part of the rule is incorrect and should be deleted. I'll leave it to the reader to find the other thread, since I'm not so hot with the cross-linking.
I'm not too keen on making finding clarification on the rules its own game. If you, dear reader, can't find an offhanded reference, just go to this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/21097685#21097685
 
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thorphin wrote:
medew wrote:
It's also worth noting that, as stated in other threads, that the "or collect $5000" part of the rule is incorrect and should be deleted. I'll leave it to the reader to find the other thread, since I'm not so hot with the cross-linking.
I'm not too keen on making finding clarification on the rules its own game. If you, dear reader, can't find an offhanded reference, just go to this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/21097685#21097685
I'm truly fascinated by the inability of their tech writer to put up a decent rulebook. Seriously, it's 6 pages long, with figures and stuff, and still the wording used is sometimes silly, sometimes inconsistent, sometimes simply wrong. C'mon. At least please up an updated rulebook somewhere on your site, with the right rules, not everyone playing this game is on BGG every day, and they all deserve to have a correct official rules reference
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Secret passageways can connect anything. Basement to first floor rooms included. Why would I, the Mad King, not be able to to go from upstairs bedroom into my kinky dungeon. We also play that secrets can be used to complete rooms without connecting two entrances. The book says you can use as many passageways as you want.
 
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