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Subject: Dice Tower's opinion rss

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Jason Brown
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Tom Vasel is still playing through it, but he spoke about his experience with TIME Stories on the Dice Tower podcast.

Bottom Line: He loves it. He said he will most definitely buy every module as they come out. He said he actually enjoyed it more than Pandemic: Legacy, which he absolutely adored.

Can't wait to hear his final review. I really listen to his opinions as I find they generally mirror my own.
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Justin Parker
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I was very disappointed to hear the options of "Shut Up and Sit Down" in their recent review. T.I.M.E Stories is very innovative... and the very minimum they should at least recognize that!

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jparkerweb wrote:
I was very disappointed to hear the options of "Shut Up and Sit Down" in their recent review. T.I.M.E Stories is very innovative... and the very minimum they should at least recognize that!

It is worth keeping in mind that SUSD were video game writers/reviewers before forming the group, and are cynically familiar with that scene. Quinns has stated he detests solo board gaming, opting for video games in moments of solitary reflection. To them, the game was an unnecessary transplant of adventure gaming tropes into a new medium (cue that Zork-esque bit from the beginning of their review). To them, it was just a bad adventure game. Nothing new if you play them regularly.
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MAJBrown22 wrote:
Tom Vasel is still playing through it, but he spoke about his experience with TIME Stories on the Dice Tower podcast.

Bottom Line: He loves it. He said he will most definitely buy every module as they come out. He said he actually enjoyed it more than Pandemic: Legacy, which he absolutely adored.

Can't wait to hear his final review. I really listen to his opinions as I find they generally mirror my own.
Tom does seem to really be impressed with T.I.M.E Story ("Blown away by it")..but to clarify, he states that he thinks;
1) The STORY in T.I.M.E Story is better than the story in Pandemic.
2) That T.I.M.E Story is not as good a GAME as Pandemic,BUT..
3) if he put it head to head with Pandemic he isn't sure which he'd want to play more.

Final review pending.
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Jason Brown
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I just listened to The Secret Cabal's review of it too. Here's a few of the highlights.

Quote:
One of the best game I have ever played in my life.
Quote:
The best time I have had playing a game in ages.
Quote:
I felt engaged, fully and completely, like I was in my character's head. It felt like there was a GM running the game.
Quote:
It's worth every penny. I'm addicted, it's like a drug. Since we played it a few nights ago, I simply cannot stop thinking about it.
Actually, all of them essentially said this. They agreed that it might not make their top 10 all time list because they can't play it again, but they absolutely will get all the expansions and can't wait for the next one.

I'm sure they'll be chatting up The Marcy Case in the next episode as they were saying it should arrive in a couple days.

Wow.
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I really hoped this game would be good, but after SU&SDs review I'll wait and buy a used copy. The SU&SD guys seem to have lots of experience with games focusing on good storytelling (such as role playing games). If they say the scenarios are unimaginative, I'm inclined to believe them.
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Helikoputtrik wrote:
I really hoped this game would be good, but after SU&SDs review I'll wait and buy a used copy. The SU&SD guys seem to have lots of experience with games focusing on good storytelling (such as role playing games). If they say the scenarios are unimaginative, I'm inclined to believe them.
Looooved the SU&SD review. They did recognise and highlight the good points of the game, and didn't slate it, but they certainly ensured that I won't be buying it.
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Christian Kløve
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Benkyo wrote:
Helikoputtrik wrote:
I really hoped this game would be good, but after SU&SDs review I'll wait and buy a used copy. The SU&SD guys seem to have lots of experience with games focusing on good storytelling (such as role playing games). If they say the scenarios are unimaginative, I'm inclined to believe them.
Looooved the SU&SD review. They did recognise and highlight the good points of the game, and didn't slate it, but they certainly ensured that I won't be buying it.
I think it is easy to get influenced by reviewers to the detriment of your best interest. I know that I have jumped into many, many games because of glowing reviews (looking at you Duel of Ages...), and many times it works out fine, sometimes it doesn't. It is quite important to know, how well your taste and enjoyment of games aligns with the reviewer's - I enjoy watching or reading reviews, but I try to look more at the game than the opinions of the reviewer.

In this case, the spectacle that is SU&SD somewhat overshadows the game. I like SU&SD. They are fun to watch (and read, sometimes). In this case, I disagree, at least so far. YMMV.
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Ben Kyo
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Kløve wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Helikoputtrik wrote:
I really hoped this game would be good, but after SU&SDs review I'll wait and buy a used copy. The SU&SD guys seem to have lots of experience with games focusing on good storytelling (such as role playing games). If they say the scenarios are unimaginative, I'm inclined to believe them.
Looooved the SU&SD review. They did recognise and highlight the good points of the game, and didn't slate it, but they certainly ensured that I won't be buying it.
I think it is easy to get influenced by reviewers to the detriment of your best interest. I know that I have jumped into many, many games because of glowing reviews (looking at you Duel of Ages...), and many times it works out fine, sometimes it doesn't. It is quite important to know, how well your taste and enjoyment of games aligns with the reviewer's - I enjoy watching or reading reviews, but I try to look more at the game than the opinions of the reviewer.

In this case, the spectacle that is SU&SD somewhat overshadows the game. I like SU&SD. They are fun to watch (and read, sometimes). In this case, I disagree, at least so far. YMMV.
But that's part of their appeal. I feel like I know them, and their likes and dislikes, so well, in part because of the entertainment value of their videos. It is really easy to judge where their tastes and mine overlap, and where we differ. Tom and the Dice Tower crew, however? I can't relate to any of them at all, and I still can't judge how our tastes intersect.
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Benkyo wrote:
Tom and the Dice Tower crew, however? I can't relate to any of them at all, and I still can't judge how our tastes intersect.
That is an easy fix. Find a game you have a firm opinion on and then fire up their final thoughts on the title. Unlike SUSD, Dice Tower videos always share their personal opinions in the last half of their videos.
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I would be inclined to think that people should build their own opinion and experience by playing rather than blindly following recommandations of others.

Who decide what suits us or not, besides ourselves? I am enjoying fully my freedom of opinion and won't give it away for nothing.

Exchanging is interesting but is only possible when you do have an opinion. Without playing a game, having an opinion is meaningless.

I think we should not take the reviews of X or Y too seriously.
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amikezor wrote:
I would be inclined to think that people should build their own opinion and experience by playing rather than blindly following recommandations of others.
Agreed.

I ordinarily go to the Dice Tower for my reviews, but they are a long way behind in getting a review out vs. in-store availability for T.I.M.E Stories so I've already purchased mine without any review.

Initially the box art drew me to the game and I decided I would buy it, then I read some negative comments on BGG regarding replayability and I decided to not buy it, then I spotted it in my local store and picked it up, together with The Marcy Case, because of that artwork again.

I am so glad I purchased this game without waiting for a review (as are three other buddies), because it's a standout piece of work and creates a terrific experience for me and my friends.
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amikezor wrote:
I would be inclined to think that people should build their own opinion and experience by playing rather than blindly following recommandations of others.
I never buy games without checking reviews, but I don't think that's "blindly following" others. I've found over time that my tastes match up very well with some (Dice Tower, Secret Cabal) and not so much others (Boardgame Brawl, Undead Viking, Rahdo). I make my own choice, but I don't like to commit $50-$60 on something without knowing anything about it.
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
Tom and the Dice Tower crew, however? I can't relate to any of them at all, and I still can't judge how our tastes intersect.
That is an easy fix. Find a game you have a firm opinion on and then fire up their final thoughts on the title. Unlike SUSD, Dice Tower videos always share their personal opinions in the last half of their videos.
I've found that a summary (or even a long video) of thoughts about a board game doesn't necessarily give me enough to go on. In the case of Tom (and sometimes two other guys in his videos), several such summaries and long discussions of board games has failed to provide me with the impression that I can use them as a sounding board to figure out whether or not I will enjoy other games that I've yet to play that he/they review. That probably has something to do with me not being any one of them and vice versa. Perhaps that might eventually change if I sink even more time into watching his/their videos, but it doesn't seem worth my time.

Reading that back I hope I don't sound too irritable, but I didn't appreciate the assumption that I had somehow arrived at an opinion on the Dice Tower without having watched a bunch of their videos.
 
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amikezor wrote:
I would be inclined to think that people should build their own opinion and experience by playing rather than blindly following recommandations of others.
I see this a lot. People seem to think statements like this bolster them in some capacity, but it does precisely the opposite. What makes human cognition exceptional is our capacity to abstract the experience of others into a personal frame, without the need for first hand experience.

Are you a cat or a beaver? If so, perhaps you need to put your paw in the fire to know not to do so, but part of what makes humanity unique is our ability to transcend the necessity for empiricism in gaining knowledge.

I'm not aiming to insult in any way, just to call attention to a pattern I've seen around here. I know, without a shadow of a doubt, you're no exception to this rule, so why artificially elevate empiricism as a virtue?

Amikezor, to address your statement directly, no reviewer under consideration says their opinion without justification. It is the weight of these justifications that frame the worth of their ultimate opinion.

Benkyo wrote:


Reading that back I hope I don't sound too irritable, but I didn't appreciate the assumption that I had somehow arrived at an opinion on the Dice Tower without having watched a bunch of their videos.
I didn't doubt you watched their videos. What I doubted was you watched their videos for games you already knew, and perhaps didn't *need* a video for. After all, most people don't engage in this kind of behavior unless they have some love for the temperament of the reviewers themselves (for me, I only do this for Rahdo, SUSD and Yahtzee's Zero Punctuation video game reviews).

By watching the final thoughts for games you know, inside and out, you can create a measure for perspective that you wouldn't be able to gain otherwise.

Personally, I have done just this, and have long ago determined little overlap exists between Dice Tower and myself (save Ryan Metzler). I don't say these words as a fan of their work (though I respect them and will always give their videos a glance if I'm trying to judge a purchase -- I just use them more for a display of rules and mechanisms than opinion).

Not that it matters, but my temperament is closest to Rahdo and Paul Deans. I respect Quinns a lot, his approach is what won me over originally, but we disagree on many things (Trajan especially).
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amikezor wrote:
I would be inclined to think that people should build their own opinion and experience by playing rather than blindly following recommandations of others
I get your point, but it would be unrealistic to think that I would pay for hundreds of games and try them in order to determine whether I like them.

The fact is, I look to reviewers and develop a sense of whether a particular reviewer has tastes similar to mine to determine whether it is likely that I will enjoy the game or not. It's never a guarantee. But if I miss a game because of a bad review by a reviewer I tend to listen to, then so be it.

I think TIME stories and the Legacy style games are introducing the concept of "consumable games" that may have a significant impact on future game designs much in the way that Dominion started the deckbuilding genre.

However, I'm not sure TIME stories will be considered one of the best examples of this new genre, but it will spur interesting designs and concepts. I don't think innovation necessarily equals quality, though.

I think TIME stories may fall into that nebulous and somewhat controversial category of games that Tales of Arabian Nights and Betrayal at House on the Hill fall into.
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Anarchosyn wrote:

I see this a lot. People seem to think statements like this bolster them in some capacity, but it does precisely the opposite. What makes human cognition exceptional is our capacity to abstract the experience of others into a personal frame, without the need for first hand experience.

Are you a cat or a beaver? If so, perhaps you need to put your paw in the fire to know not to do so, but part of what makes humanity unique is our ability to transcend the necessity for empiricism in gaining knowledge.

I'm not aiming to insult in any way, just to call attention to a pattern I've seen around here. I know, without a shadow of a doubt, you're no exception to this rule, so why artificially elevate empiricism as a virtue?

Amikezor, to address your statement directly, no reviewer under consideration says their opinion without justification. It is the weight of these justifications that frame the worth of their ultimate opinion.
Interesting reply; no offence taken. ^^

I'd say yes and no to your first point. Leaving aside personnal experiences and simply following other's opinions/directives also has immediate limitations. I suspect than "giving a try at game A or game B" cannot be simply reduced to "putting your hand in a fire or not". Risks differ. Don't they?

I typically value more empiricism, as far as game is concerned, because I tend to disagree on the top-list even with my closest play-mates. I am always keen on discussing why but, without having played the games, discussion is pointless.

All in all, I conceed that reading reviews may be entertaining, but I don't take them too seriously. I enjoy more exchanges (as we have now ^^) than advices.
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oppedj02 wrote:

I think TIME stories and the Legacy style games are introducing the concept of "consumable games" that may have a significant impact on future game designs much in the way that Dominion started the deckbuilding genre.
It's not that new, Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective: The Thames Murders & Other Cases did it in the 1980s, followed by Gumshoe. The republication of Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective does seem to be part of a recent resurgence of interest in this type of game though.
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oppedj02 wrote:
amikezor wrote:
I would be inclined to think that people should build their own opinion and experience by playing rather than blindly following recommandations of others
I get your point, but it would be unrealistic to think that I would pay for hundreds of games and try them in order to determine whether I like them.
Right. It is like reading all books ever written to see the ones we like. Makes no sense. Finding an ideal point between Exploration and Recommandation. No so easy ^^.
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whitescar wrote:
oppedj02 wrote:

I think TIME stories and the Legacy style games are introducing the concept of "consumable games" that may have a significant impact on future game designs much in the way that Dominion started the deckbuilding genre.
It's not that new, Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective: The Thames Murders & Other Cases did it in the 1980s, followed by Gumshoe. The republication of Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective does seem to be part of a recent resurgence of interest in this type of game though.
What about roleplaying games? ... even older. :-)
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Nobody should just follow one reviewer, even if their tastes match up. You should look into all the reviews that come out for a game and get a general sense if it is good or bad. Then if it is still a game you are interested in get it. I would have missed many great games if I had only made purchases based on drive through reviews, even though my tastes generally match up with his.
 
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The game mechanics are very appealing to me.
Big fan of the artwork I've seen.
Several glowing reviews out there by reviewers who experience has taught me have similar tastes to mine.
I'm in.

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amikezor wrote:
whitescar wrote:
oppedj02 wrote:

I think TIME stories and the Legacy style games are introducing the concept of "consumable games" that may have a significant impact on future game designs much in the way that Dominion started the deckbuilding genre.
It's not that new, Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective: The Thames Murders & Other Cases did it in the 1980s, followed by Gumshoe. The republication of Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective does seem to be part of a recent resurgence of interest in this type of game though.
What about roleplaying games? ... even older. :-)
Good point, there are other examples. But I don't think they were seen as a genre (certainly they didn't spark a genre). But I think TIME Stories and Legacy games are really bringing up the discussion about games with limited replayability and generating innovative ideas on the part of designers that extend beyond the game itself.

As for rpg's. I guess my counter-point would be two-fold and somewhat arbitrary (so I could be easily swayed):

1. rpg's fall slightly outside of the hobby gaming world. As someone who played D&D for many years I never even encountered hobby games. So I don't think the conversation of consumable board games typically includes role playing games.

2. role playing games are different from these consumable games in that the rpg rules provide a framework for the game itself that comes, ultimately, from the minds of the GM and players. So it's never "consumed" in the same sense. When I am done with a campaign of D&D, the rule books still provide the same framework to spur additional adventures. When I finish TIME Stories or a Legacy game, the game loses it's capacity to be replayed (excluding constant expansions in the case of TIME Stories).
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Back to the main point, I do tend to have reviewers that, more often than not, match my typical tastes. Usually I am interested in the game already, though, and a "relatable" reviewer might tip the scale. There are many times a reviewer I like gives a positive review of a game, but if it doesn't appeal to me, it won't sway me. If I'm ambivalent to interested, then it may.

I also focus on what elements a reviewer liked or didn't like. That gives me more of a key to it's compatibility. Did it play well with 2 (I play many games as 2-player)? Is it AP prone, are rules written well, etc.

Regarding TIME Stories, Tom's review thus far did positively impact my impression of the game as I was already ambivalent. But, I'm still not swayed as I'm pretty sure that after the first playthrough I will not enjoy playing the same scenario over again until I win (I really hate playing the same scenes over again in video games as well). So it will still be a pass. But I can see its appeal.
 
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Helikoputtrik wrote:
I really hoped this game would be good, but after SU&SDs review I'll wait and buy a used copy. The SU&SD guys seem to have lots of experience with games focusing on good storytelling (such as role playing games). If they say the scenarios are unimaginative, I'm inclined to believe them.
SUSD loves Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective - which is fun to play, but frustrating because of the answers and the impossible pace Sherlock sets so unless you play competitively there's no way to know if you did "well" and Tales of the Arabian Nights which is just a mess where your choices and what the next paragraph actually says don't match up in such a way that makes Mass Effect look like a masterpiece of logic and reason. Yet they bashed Arkham Horror.

So in addition to being pretentious they also seem to carry a lot of wrong with them.
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