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One Night Ultimate Vampire» Forums » Variants

Subject: Epic Werewolf-Vampire Combination rss

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Angelus Morningstar
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So in terms of mixing both UNOW & UNOV, there are some overlaps and similarities. The Gremlin is a strictly better version of the Troublemaker.

Having played a number of rounds of ONUV, and clocking a substantial number of ONUW I've already seen how keeping track of the marks would be doubly confusing when also needing to keep track of roles moving around.

Given this, I was initially thinking of removing any of the roles that would cause role changes and some of the more convoluted roles:

Doppelganger is superseded by the copycat (IMO) because it's less convoluted.
Dream Wolf, not knowing who your allies are when there are vampires too, becomes a major liability.
Robber is similar to the pickpocket, but tracing role movements as well as mark movements can be convoluted.
Witch causes role movement, and so can be convoluted with marks.
Troublemaker superseded by Gremlin,
Drunk again, role movement makes the game convoluted
Insomniac redundant without card movers
Minion superseded by Squire
Village Idiot (very convoluted)

However, after some thought, I realised that a quick revision could allow most of these roles to find new life with UNOV.

Doppelganger: Look at another player's role. You are now on that team (Team villager/werewolf/vampire makes them a normal villager/werewolf/vampire and they will wake up with the other vampires/werewolves; team assassin/tanner makes them an apprentice assassin/tanner).

Sentinel: Place a shield token on another player, but that shield token also protects their mark.

Alpha Wolf: Look at one non-werewolf mark, and turn it face up next to the centre of the board. Place the mark of the werewolf (custom made) face down in front of them. (Alternative, may look at all the marks of werewolves).

Dream Wolf: Wake up and look at the two marks of clarity on the board. If either is a mark of clarity, take that mark and place it in front of you.

Apprentice Seer: May look at either one other player's mark, or two in the centre.

Paranormal Investigator: Look at one player's mark. If that mark is a mark of clarity, also look at their role. (Unlike normal, doesn't become that team, this is taken over by the Doppelganger)

Robber: Look at another player's mark. If that mark is a mark of clarity, you may switch your mark with theirs.

Witch: Look at a mark in the centre. If you do, you must switch that mark with any player's mark.

Troublemaker: Switches the marks of the player on either side of them.

Village Idiot: Move all players' marks (not your own) one left or one right.

Aura-seer: Everyone who has moved a mark or looked at a mark, sticks out their thumb.

Gremlin: Switch the two marks of any two players next to each other.

Drunk: Swaps his mark with one from the centre without looking.

Insomniac: Looks at their mark.

Squire: werewolves sticks out their thumbs, then looks at all their marks.

Beholder: Seer, Apprentice Seer & Aura-Seer, sticks out their thumb. May look at their marks.

Revealer: Looks at one player's mark, and reveals it if it is a mark of clarity.

Curator: remove one player's mark, and replace it with an artefact at random.

 
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Kokken Tor
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But the point of the marks vs. roles is to make it more convoluted...
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Angelus Morningstar
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Convolution for the sake of convolution is not always good. Also, I don't know if I agree that the purpose is to make it convoluted. Marks vs roles just represents two similar ideas, but basically taking the concept of UNOW and using the lessons learned from One Night Revolution.

To me, the marks are a refinement of the base concepts.
 
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Adam Guarino-Watson
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What you are suggesting is not Epic ONV + ONW. It is ONV + more role choices. I can see many of your extra role suggestions working though and that's a great thing. The thing is, as people would realise, ONV is about Mark manipulation and ONW is about Role manipulation. If you don't have both types of manipulation then it isn't an Epic combination.

I very much agree that more convolution isn't better. If my games with ONW + OND have proven anything, is that we had much better games when every role didn't involve role manipulation. Those games where we did have a lot of role manipulation were just silly. The suggested ratios in the books in the example setups seem just about right. When combining ONW with ONV in an epic game, one would need to lower the ratios of both Role and Mark manipulation to make the game balanced, or at least work well. But the issue is that without any Role manipulation, then the game would be skewed incorrectly in relation to the Werewolves.

You could even limit the chaotic nature of some of the roles. For example, the Robber could read:
"Look at another player's Mark. If it is a Mark of Clarity, then swap your role with the same player and then look at your new role."

I do like many of your new roles, but they are just that and I wouldn't play any Werewolves with those roles, just Vampires. I also disagree that any role has superseded or is strictly better than previous roles, they are simply for different games. Although you do have a point about the Doppelganger being too confusing for its own good.
 
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Angelus Morningstar
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Well the Gremlin has strictly superseded the Troublemaker as it can do either.

I would also suggest that under this division Werewolf gains a focus on role investigation, rather than role manipulation.
 
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Adam Guarino-Watson
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I understand that you think ONV is a better game, but we will have to agree to disagree. I think there is room for both individually and as a combination with little to no modifications, albeit with judicious role selection.
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Angelus Morningstar
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So having played a few of these ideas out, I've begun formulating new views. I've come to agree with the people in this thread that suggest that it's not entirely a replacement or something that supersedes, a lot of it has to do with the scale of the game.

I've also played a game of an epic conflict and yes it is a bit clunky, but not unweildly. There are a number of points of friction that make merging the two games together. Partly, because it seems like you actually need a 13+ size group for an epic battle properly, but then you have problems of the group being overly large, and there not being enough marks.

In principle, I've found that games only become too convoluted when there is *both* role swapping *and* mark swapping. If there is mark assignment and role swapping (but no gremlin or pickpocket etc), then it still works quite well. However, also due to the number of marks available, I've found that when the group is large (above 8) then the impact of marks is more diluted, even when using all roles that assign marks.

Some of the thoughts I've had as an outcome align with Urutsini, in that my suggestions are more ways to integrate some of the Werewolf roles into a UNUV game more seamlessly.

My experiences also suggest that the mark manipulation without role manipulation works better for smaller groups, while role manipulation without mark manipulation works better for larger groups.

With ONUV, one of the things that I've found is when the group is large enough that it means marks are far and few between. As long as you don't use the Doppelganger, you can actually use the duplicate marks to empower some roles to assign two marks instead of one for groups large enough - mostly Instigator, the Count, or Diseased (though that just default means both people either side). You could maybe add a third mark for the Priest and/or the Cupid to add (love triangle).

Some further recommendations to try out:

ONUV with role manipulation and mark assignment, but no mark manipulation.
Mix of role and mark manipulation.
Doubling of some marks for larger groups to share the mark fun.
 
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Derry Hyde
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I don't think I quite understand. How would the drunk take a mark from the center without looking? Do they always take it from the same area or are they supposed to just guess?

Personally I think the roles work fine the way they are, if playing an epic game you just have to use different sets of characters than usual possibly, or keep swapping them out. If they're always in rotation then you cant ever get bored of them.
 
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