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Subject: General mechanics from Arkham still missing in Eldritch rss

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Jon W
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Now that Under the Pyramids is nearly here, I'm curious about what feels "missing" from Eldritch in comparison to Arkham. Personally, I don't want (nor do I see, so far) slavish devotion on FFG's part to replicating every little piece of Arkham, but some aspects are fun and might be a good fit. So I went through and tried to pick out the missing "general" mechanics to see how they might or might not work with Eldritch. Here are my thoughts, but please add yours!

Skills:
Part of Arkham from the start, I miss these, as they add variability and differentiation. They wouldn't be trivial to retrofit in Eldritch, as every character's at-start possessions are fixed. But they could convert them into Eldritch terms and do a "draw two, keep one" method, or "take an Impairment and draw one" (or whatever) to give each game and character a different wrinkle. Maybe make them a little more in depth than the Arkham ones to add some narrative flavor. Could even take a page from BSG and add a once-per-game and a negative ability. If they were in-depth enough, it would be really fun to see the impact on the game with Charlie Kane/Skill A versus Charlie Kane/Skill B (and C, and D, etc.).

Relationships:
I've always liked this addition from Lurker, as it creates (forces?) some fun interactions between characters. Adds narrative, variability, and options for a fairly small overhead. Not sure the implementation was perfect, but with some minor development it could be ported straight to Eldritch.

Personal Stories:
This general addition from Innsmouth was fun, but a little clunky in terms of setup and adding to the overall sprawl of the game. In Arkham form, it would definitely require retrofitting, which is probably a negative. Just like Skills, though, it's fun to enrich each character.

Heralds/Guardians/Institutions:
These add nice thematic touches, and are good for adjusting difficulty and adding a bit of variability. In Eldritch terms, Preludes already do most of this, but I'm thinking of almost an alternate, additional Prelude. I'd want to avoid a separate deck for each, but maybe something along the lines of a general deck Encounter cards (three separate effects) that interacts with the specific Herald/Guardian/Institution in play.

Blights:
King in Yellow as a whole would be fairly easy to add into the existing AO framework, but Blights from that expansion would be a nice general effect in Eldritch. The name itself is goofy, but having negative characters (Nemeses, perhaps?) is a cool idea. Perhaps take unused characters and turn them bad somehow, and have them cruise around the map helping the AO or getting in the way via some simple algorithm.

Corruption:
This is mostly implemented already (via Deals and perhaps Glamour spells), but I always liked this idea from Black Goat (and wish it was relevant more than 2% of the time in Arkham). Probably best put into an AO-specific module, not a general effect.

Trophies:
Another base Arkham idea, gates and monster trophies that you "spend" for positive effects. Taken literally, they're silly as well as tough to reconcile thematically, but I think they're easy to translate into "experience" (it makes sense that someone who's seen four different Other Worlds might be able to turn that experience into something beneficial). I suspect this would require too much retrofitting to be feasible.

Terror/Outskirts/Closed:
This always felt like an under-used, kludgy way to account for monster overflow. But the idea that perhaps a whole city "goes dark" because of doom/monsters/mythos might have some legs.

Rifts:
Perhaps not a direct analogue to Kingsport's mechanisms, but I could see something like this that makes the map itself more variable. Perhaps some tokens that drift around the board and block or re-route paths, or add a consequence (doom, monster, etc.) if you cross them.
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Krzysiek Domański
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waddball wrote:
Terror/Outskirts/Closed:
This always felt like an under-used, kludgy way to account for monster overflow. But the idea that perhaps a whole city "goes dark" because of doom/monsters/mythos might have some legs.
The more monster tokens are in a given city, the more difficult it is to achieve anything there.
Sometimes in our games, some cities become overrun with monsters and effectively lost for us.
As we can't defeat what's sitting there, they are effectively holes in the map.
I would say that these cities reached Terror 10.
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Mark Bauer
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waddball wrote:

Trophies:
Another base Arkham idea, gates and monster trophies that you "spend" for positive effects. Taken literally, they're silly as well as tough to reconcile thematically, but I think they're easy to translate into "experience" (it makes sense that someone who's seen four different Other Worlds might be able to turn that experience into something beneficial). I suspect this would require too much retrofitting to be feasible.
This was also already implemented via some Task-Assets from the unique assets deck. Collect Gate/Monster token in order to gain a benefit.
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Jon W
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haroth9842 wrote:
Sometimes in our games, some cities become overrun with monsters and effectively lost for us. As we can't defeat what's sitting there, they are effectively holes in the map. I would say that these cities reached Terror 10.
True, and I've had the same experience. It's fine as is, but I was just thinking of how to convert the Arkham idea more explicitly. Maybe a deck of "Terror" cards, so moving through any space with 3+ monsters causes some negative effect (incenting you to deal with that space via Tokyo or Expeditions).

I dunno, probably more fuss than it's worth, as despite all the above, I wouldn't at all want FFG to make a sprawling mess of Eldritch. Just considering simple, low-overhead ideas.
 
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Wouter Dhondt
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waddball wrote:
Blights:
King in Yellow as a whole would be fairly easy to add into the existing AO framework, but Blights from that expansion would be a nice general effect in Eldritch. The name itself is goofy, but having negative characters (Nemeses, perhaps?) is a cool idea. Perhaps take unused characters and turn them bad somehow, and have them cruise around the map helping the AO or getting in the way via some simple algorithm.
Blights are probably my favorite expansion additions to Arkham, after the Injury and Madness cards. I hope blights will be added to Eldritch, preferably with the King in Yellow.
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The general feeling that slowly builds up of being totally overwhelmed and helpless yet still triumphing against all odds, or failing with hilarious consequences is missing in Eldritch. I miss that tension and sense of fun. I want to be a nun riding a motorbike holding a flame-thrower, not some guy who is good at buying stuff or sailing.

EH is by far the superior game in my opinion. FFG have really got to grips with their rules and game mechanic issues. But it does miss that something AH had. I have put it down to my lack of experience in the game and not reading the board state properly but I am not so sure. I used to think AH was as dry and boring and I hope to be wrong.

The above suggestions do help towards this I think but so far, simply for the experience, AH still wins hands down.
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Halfinger wrote:
The general feeling that slowly builds up of being totally overwhelmed and helpless yet still triumphing against all odds ... is missing in Eldritch. I miss that tension
This seems backwards to me. Whatever else was good about Arkham Horror, the worst part of it was the way it got easier and easier as you sealed gates, making for endings that felt like a given an hour before the game ended.
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Wouter Dhondt
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Dormammu wrote:
Halfinger wrote:
The general feeling that slowly builds up of being totally overwhelmed and helpless yet still triumphing against all odds ... is missing in Eldritch. I miss that tension
This seems backwards to me. Whatever else was good about Arkham Horror, the worst part of it was the way it got easier and easier as you sealed gates, making for endings that felt like a given an hour before the game ended.
When playing without gate bursts or easy GOOs, yes.
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Jon W
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Halfinger wrote:
The general feeling that slowly builds up of being totally overwhelmed and helpless yet still triumphing against all odds, or failing with hilarious consequences is missing in Eldritch.
Huh, I don't see that. Well, maybe the hilarious part, and I think you're seeing something in Arkham that I'm not sure how to define.

But I definitely think Eldritch has really nailed the game arc in a much better way that Arkham ever did. Arkham rarely had a slow build-up; instead, you were immediately under siege and desperate, but the end-game was often protracted and dull (and the fixes for this were clumsy). Eldritch nearly always builds (usually slowly) toward a critical tipping point in the end-game.

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The above suggestions do help towards this I think but so far, simply for the experience, AH still wins hands down.
I don't agree, and I'm not hoping for some direct conversion to "fix" anything. I'm just pointing out (or really, asking the question): here are some things from Arkham; would you eventually like to see them in Eldritch?

Personally, I wouldn't want all of the things noted above to make it, but I think some should, in some form or another (and as others have pointed out, some are being worked into various nooks and crannies already).
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Ben Bosmans
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waddball wrote:
Halfinger wrote:
The general feeling that slowly builds up of being totally overwhelmed and helpless yet still triumphing against all odds, or failing with hilarious consequences is missing in Eldritch.
Huh, I don't see that. Well, maybe the hilarious part, and I think you're seeing something in Arkham that I'm not sure how to define.

But I definitely think Eldritch has really nailed the game arc in a much better way that Arkham ever did. Arkham rarely had a slow build-up; instead, you were immediately under siege and desperate, but the end-game was often protracted and dull (and the fixes for this were clumsy). Eldritch nearly always builds (usually slowly) toward a critical tipping point in the end-game.

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The above suggestions do help towards this I think but so far, simply for the experience, AH still wins hands down.
I don't agree, and I'm not hoping for some direct conversion to "fix" anything. I'm just pointing out (or really, asking the question): here are some things from Arkham; would you eventually like to see them in Eldritch?

Personally, I wouldn't want all of the things noted above to make it, but I think some should, in some form or another (and as others have pointed out, some are being worked into various nooks and crannies already).
I fully agree. Respect the different games and their respective game play.

Elder Sign, Arkham Horror, Eldritch Horror or Mansions of Madness, all have their own focus and can be equally enjoyed.

I think we are over the stage that they have to be all the same game. They are clearly not and it depends on personal preferences (and even changing mood settings) what you enjoy most.

Great HP Lovecraft games in my book.

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Jacob Mercer
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Could we extend this conversation even farther and talk about Mansions of Madness and how it's mechanics could blend with Eldritch? We have seen this happen already with Spells (multiple cards with same front, different results on back). I was thrilled when Eldritch decided to take that one step further by adding conditions with the same mechanic.

But the one thing I loved about Mansions of Madness that I think could be worked in somehow down the line... Trauma cards. Before you say that they already have this covered with conditions, hear me out:

Trauma cards in Mansions have (in many cases) a minimum Health/Sanity loss requirement associated to them, and they couldn't be dealt to a player until they lost that level of Sanity/Health or more. For example, a sane player couldn't be dealt any of these cards, and minor sanity loss only attributed to minor setbacks. But if you went insane, you got hit with some heavy stuff.

The main point of these "conditions" was that the bad things got worse depending on how bad the investigators were. Insane investigators could even turn on eachother.

Mainly, I would love to see Eldritch Horror play around a little more with the Sanity aspect that makes Lovecraftian games so great. I'd love to see a new "type" of condition that you have to draw whenever you lose any amount of sanity. But it's random, so you'll draw a condition and look at it's minimum required Sanity. If you haven't reached that level of sanity loss, you discard the card and nothing happens. But if your sanity is low enough, you resolve it.

I would love that mechanic.
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Xelto G
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Kwakkie wrote:
Dormammu wrote:
Halfinger wrote:
The general feeling that slowly builds up of being totally overwhelmed and helpless yet still triumphing against all odds ... is missing in Eldritch. I miss that tension
This seems backwards to me. Whatever else was good about Arkham Horror, the worst part of it was the way it got easier and easier as you sealed gates, making for endings that felt like a given an hour before the game ended.
When playing without gate bursts or easy GOOs, yes.
Even with gate bursts. Sure, there was the chance that your work had to be redone, but until a burst shows up, that's a gate you don't have to worry about respawning. As the game went along, it got easier. Especially if you weren't playing with either Dunwitch or Innsmouth.
 
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Dormammu wrote:
Halfinger wrote:
The general feeling that slowly builds up of being totally overwhelmed and helpless yet still triumphing against all odds ... is missing in Eldritch. I miss that tension
This seems backwards to me. Whatever else was good about Arkham Horror, the worst part of it was the way it got easier and easier as you sealed gates, making for endings that felt like a given an hour before the game ended.

In the base game yes but not with the Dunwich Horror expansion. It also varied a lot with the number of players. We never did more than three.
 
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Ben_Bos wrote:
waddball wrote:
Halfinger wrote:
The general feeling that slowly builds up of being totally overwhelmed and helpless yet still triumphing against all odds, or failing with hilarious consequences is missing in Eldritch.
Huh, I don't see that. Well, maybe the hilarious part, and I think you're seeing something in Arkham that I'm not sure how to define.

But I definitely think Eldritch has really nailed the game arc in a much better way that Arkham ever did. Arkham rarely had a slow build-up; instead, you were immediately under siege and desperate, but the end-game was often protracted and dull (and the fixes for this were clumsy). Eldritch nearly always builds (usually slowly) toward a critical tipping point in the end-game.

Quote:
The above suggestions do help towards this I think but so far, simply for the experience, AH still wins hands down.
I don't agree, and I'm not hoping for some direct conversion to "fix" anything. I'm just pointing out (or really, asking the question): here are some things from Arkham; would you eventually like to see them in Eldritch?

Personally, I wouldn't want all of the things noted above to make it, but I think some should, in some form or another (and as others have pointed out, some are being worked into various nooks and crannies already).
I fully agree. Respect the different games and their respective game play.

Elder Sign, Arkham Horror, Eldritch Horror or Mansions of Madness, all have their own focus and can be equally enjoyed.

I think we are over the stage that they have to be all the same game. They are clearly not and it depends on personal preferences (and even changing mood settings) what you enjoy most.

Great HP Lovecraft games in my book.

My ultimate grip with AH is the terrible rulebook, clunky mechanics and badly designed components. EH fixes that issue so that would be my first request for AH and my only one. Despite that EH simply does not provide the tension AH does or even close to it. So AH wins for me but others will of course prefer EH as they do get that tension or don't care for it. That is a given and no respect needed. I will be playing EH a lot more than AH purely because it is a much easier game to play without tearing your hair out.

There are several FFG games I will not buy due to the bad design and rules. EH breaks that mold so if something added gives me the same buzz as AH does I'm all for it.
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Halfinger wrote:

EH is by far the superior game in my opinion.

but so far, simply for the experience, AH still wins hands down.
...

This doesn't compute. You might say you think EH is the better set of rules/mechanics. But a "game" is the entire experience, from rules to components to flow to "feel."

Its ok to say Arkham is a better game even though EH is more "streamlined."

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Xelto G
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Almost everything in your list were things I put up as bloat that made Arkham less enjoyable. I wouldn't mind seeing most of them make their way over to Eldritch Horror (relationships can stay with Arkham, and I think that being able to improve attributes works better than the random skill draws at the start of a game), but if they come to EH, they ought to be something that's specific to a prelude or ancient one, really, to avoid that bloated feeling that Arkham got by the end.
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Not from Arkham, but from Elder Sign, I like the way the challenges on each card making the encounters more interesting and varied. In EH, that would basically translate to having multiple tests per card. Maybe done by adding in 'complex encounters' or maybe only making the Other World encounters like Elder Sign.
 
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Jon W
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Xelto wrote:
I wouldn't mind seeing most of them make their way over to Eldritch Horror (relationships can stay with Arkham, and I think that being able to improve attributes works better than the random skill draws at the start of a game), but if they come to EH, they ought to be something that's specific to a prelude or ancient one, really, to avoid that bloated feeling that Arkham got by the end.
I think (not positive, but close) that the list reflects all of the "un-ported" general mechanics from Arkham. Many would certainly be easier to port over in an AO-specific method (Heralds, Blights, Corruption, Rifts).

But in general terms, I think Arkham's characters are both more intricate, and more variable. Part of the intricacy is the skill sliders (more interesting in theory than practice; like you, I like the attributes). A bigger part, for me anyway, is just having more random possessions. I like that sense of uncertainty and anticipation before each game (and having a few more levers to pull is fun). Even better, it breaks up repetitive patterns, because you might draw something that pushes your support character into a more active role, or vice-versa.

I miss that, and I hope something that deepens/expands each character might make it over in some form.
 
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stevelabny wrote:
Halfinger wrote:

EH is by far the superior game in my opinion.

but so far, simply for the experience, AH still wins hands down.
...

This doesn't compute. You might say you think EH is the better set of rules/mechanics. But a "game" is the entire experience, from rules to components to flow to "feel."

Its ok to say Arkham is a better game even though EH is more "streamlined."

In my opinion means it is a subjective statement and therefore no need to compute to anything. I'm skipping this whole topic, it really is silly now
 
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Jacob Busby
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One of the issues with EH is that its quite repetitive, so anything that adds extra elements to the game is good for me. (See https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1422888/blasphemous-cults for my relatively simple take on "Heralds" for EH.)

I can see the argument that adding bloat to the game doesn't necessarily make for a better game. I guess it's different horses for different courses, one person's bloat is another person's nuance.

({RANT MODE on} Slipping off-topic for a moment, more variation in the mysteries would really help this game a lot. Most of the mysteries are either defeat a big monster or gather clues and then sacrifice them. Something like stop X cultists reaching the British Museum and each time one makes it to London something bad happens - would really vary this game... {RANT OFF})

Skills / Personal Relationships would certainly help differentiate the investigators. You might be playing Lily Chen two games in a row, but if everyone starts with a skill she'll play differently depending on whether she has the Bounty Hunter skill (trade excess damage for trinkets from the Reserve) or Mystic Lore (that allow her to sacrifice sanity to look at the back of her spells). And variety is usually a good thing.

As we're trying to avoid bloat, we probably ought to use the existing model. One way to implement this would an Education boon. When a player rests, they may make a Lore check to flip over the education boon. Some boons will be sacrificed immediately for a straight up stat increase, others might give special abilities. A prologue could then be included - perhaps everyone starts with an Education boon, but each card in the reserves start face down and can only be flipped up when a player tries to buy that item.

I'm not entirely sure how you'd model the Personal Stories and Relationships in EH. In AH they did add an extra layer of emotional investment to your character, but there aren't enough levers to work them in, in my opinion.

Terror: Off the top of my head, you might want to try something like this. Strange eons up a bunch of Terror tokens. At the start of the Mythos Phase, a city with three or more monsters is in Terror. Place a Terror token next to it. If another monster is added to that city, the Terror spreads to the nearest city of the lead player's choosing.

Effects of Terror: Players cannot use travel tickets to travel to or from cities in terror. Additionally, if every city in terror, civilisation collapses and the players lose the game.

Removing Terror: A player who ends their Encounter phase in a city may remove a Terror token from that city, provided there are no more than 2 monsters in the city.

(This variation is likely to make the game harder, you could always compensate by adding an extra green and yellow card to Act I)
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Bob T
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Skills could be added by drawing a random Improvement token, allowing the player to boost that skill another two times on top of it.

Eldritch did away with most of the +1/-1 global effects that make Arkham so complicated. Blights are a great example of this- most of the Blights give you yet another -1 to remember. So even though I love the Blights with their awesome artwork plus the chance of meeting these insane villagers during the game, I have to admit they're extremely fiddly.

Corruptions are also one of my favorite AH mechanics, but they do bring extra fiddliness. "Corruptions" in EH would make for an awesome new type of Condition card...

One thing I don't want to see in EH are the Environments (mostly "Weather") where one skill is +1 and another is -1. I house-ruled it long ago that these have no effect at all because I can never remember them.

Terror/Closed- "Closed" would certainly work with a "King In Yellow" scenario as whole cities shut down from the spreading madness. Guess this could work with any of the Ancient Ones.

I'd love to see Personal Stories and Relationships- anything to flesh out the characters more without forcing them into one specific role. Maybe that's why AH can seem more satisfying- it's looser framework allows characters to go off in the entirely wrong direction, such as the Nun with the Tommy Gun, or the Gangster who somehow becomes a master Spell-caster despite his low Sanity (Yes this has actually happened)

With each expansion I see EH and Elder Sign edging closer to that fiddly abyss...
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Krzysiek Domański
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One of the mechanics I'm missing from Arkham are Skills.
I have been pondering how these could be implemented in Eldritch and I came up with an idea I described in a [ad]first post on my new geekblog[/ad].
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As for exchanging trophy with item i think it can be easily houseruled.

I think the AH exchange system works just fine for EH, Probably like exchanging 2 point worth of toughness for every 1 point Item value in the reserve and Gate Trophy worth 1-2 points
 
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Relationships were by far one of the coolest additions to AH or at least the most exciting one for our group. The idea that you have a random connection to people you are working with and the added thematic player relations really made each game interesting.

So they would be one of the biggest things I am missing from EH.
 
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A substantial number of players seems to be missing the AH Relationships.
This inspired me to try and create a prototype Relationships design for Eldritch.
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