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Subject: Why Should I back when I have other similar games. rss

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Anthony Avelar
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I am an avid board gamer and have a lot of different games in my collection. I like mice and mystics but was turned off a little by the AI of the monsters. I am getting Fireteam Zero which the mechanics look awesome. I backed Gloomhaven and can't wait for it. I just backed The Others for just the sheer beauty of the minis. I also backed Shadows of Brimstone which was amazing but takes quite a bit to get people playing.
My concern is that I have way too much Co-ops to get too! Also backed Apocrypha which is a lot of gameplay also.

The only reason why I even backed this was because people raved about how the AI for Galaxy Defenders was amazing and that they couldn't wait for swords and sorcery. So with so many games that I have (More than I have mentioned so far) or will have in this genre. Should I steer away from this. Or is this the end all for this genre where I just have to get because of streamlined AI mechanics?
 
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Josh Conner
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You shouldn't, sounds like you already have more games than time.
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Dom Hiob
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JConner wrote:
sounds like you already have more games than time.
hm, I would say that is true for almost anyone with a collection of 10 games or more.

That said, I don't think S&S is the end of all dungeon crawlers (or so I hope). It's also not trying to reinvent the genre. But I certainly think it will be one of the most polished and fun experiences out there. There are a number of reasons (to me, that is). Note that I'm basing my expectations on a pretty good knowledge of Galaxy Defenders, but no real experience with S&S, apart from reading the rulebook (so I may be wrong on some points):

- great gameplay (cinematic is the best way to describe it)
- excellent AI
- beautiful components
- varied missions
- (for the KS) great ratio of bang for buck

If these points appeal to you/your group, I think you can't go wrong with S&S. Also I think S&S will shine especially with respect to enemy behavior. First, because each enemy type will have its own, really uniquely different behavior pattern. Second, because the enemies behave in a really smart way.

Coming from Galaxy Defenders, I could see the story part of S&S being weaker than in games like Mice and Mystics or Gloomhaven. On the other hand, you will probably want to play S&S campaign style, playing the same character over and over and leveling up and so on (different than Mice and Mystics). And when all is said and done and you've had enough of S&S, you could give it to a friend or sell it (difference to Gloomhaven), as there is no "Legacy" element to it.
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Mr G
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Watch the Italian guys and girls having a blast in latest video ref scenario 1 and be happy about buying the game.
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Tom H
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I'm backing Sword & Sorcery based off of the strength of Galaxy Defenders which I own. From what I've seen S&S is an improvement over the GD system.

IMHO S&S will be much better than SoB which I own. Enemy behaviors more complex than "rush into you". Scenarios that feel different to each other (GD definitely has this).

Like you I've backed Gloomhaven and I'm looking forwards to that, but I am eagerly backing S&S as well. S&S and Gloomhaven feel very different in mechanics and theme. S&S does feel like a safer bet to me than Gloomhaven, but I'm eager to get both.
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Lance Codarin
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fentum wrote:

Watch the Italian guys and girls having a blast in latest video ref scenario 1 and be happy about buying the game.
are you referring to the guys of jogando offline? because they AREN'T Italians
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Darklaw90 wrote:
fentum wrote:

Watch the Italian guys and girls having a blast in latest video ref scenario 1 and be happy about buying the game.
are you referring to the guys of jogando offline? because they AREN'T Italians
Brazilians, in fact.
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Marco Signore
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Antivelar wrote:
I am an avid board gamer and have a lot of different games in my collection. I like mice and mystics but was turned off a little by the AI of the monsters. I am getting Fireteam Zero which the mechanics look awesome. I backed Gloomhaven and can't wait for it. I just backed The Others for just the sheer beauty of the minis. I also backed Shadows of Brimstone which was amazing but takes quite a bit to get people playing.
My concern is that I have way too much Co-ops to get too! Also backed Apocrypha which is a lot of gameplay also.

The only reason why I even backed this was because people raved about how the AI for Galaxy Defenders was amazing and that they couldn't wait for swords and sorcery. So with so many games that I have (More than I have mentioned so far) or will have in this genre. Should I steer away from this. Or is this the end all for this genre where I just have to get because of streamlined AI mechanics?
Do you really want just one reason? Because it's awesome.
I probably have even more coop skirmish DC and classic DC than you, yet whenever I find one GOOD DC / skirmish-DC, it becomes a must-buy.
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Thibaud Dejardin
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Antivelar wrote:
The only reason why I even backed this was because people raved about how the AI for Galaxy Defenders was amazing and that they couldn't wait for swords and sorcery.
I really like Galaxy Defenders but I consider the AI as far from perfect. It is not the best feature of the game in my opinion. The theme is gorgeous and the components top nocht. Expansion AI was a lot better, but has still lots of room to improve.

I'm still on the fence about SS because the theme is a lot less inspired (generic fantasy), the corridor tiles are a turn-off to me, and the AI looks not really stunning, after a test on tabletopia. Basically, a lot of ennemies seem to just go melee with you, which is logic with the new supremacy mechanic, but a bit "meh" tactically speaking.

And I want to be sure I'll keep enough bucks to back perdition mouth when its kickstarter will launch on the 11/11, because the mechanics look absolutely awesome and I'm really excited about this one.

Just a different advice.
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Archange227 wrote:

Basically, a lot of ennemies seem to just go melee with you, which is logic with the new supremacy mechanic, but a bit "meh" tactically speaking.
And by a lot you mean the 2 out of currently 12 known enemy types in the tabletopia demo...
 
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Anthony Avelar
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Thanks a lot for all the comments. I really like hearing the positives and negatives. I am Portuguese so I might watch the Brazilians play the game. I think I will stop my early back because of the perdition's mouth comment. I know that there will be more games that come out and I feel the mechanics in this one are not enough for me to back it. I really liked shadows of brimstone even if they did similar tactics. I know there will be more games that I like, so I probably should save for them. I also just backed Scythe which looks amazing!
 
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Dom Hiob
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Antivelar wrote:
Thanks a lot for all the comments. I really like hearing the positives and negatives. I am Portuguese so I might watch the Brazilians play the game. I think I will stop my early back because of the perdition's mouth comment. I know that there will be more games that come out and I feel the mechanics in this one are not enough for me to back it. I really liked shadows of brimstone even if they did similar tactics. I know there will be more games that I like, so I probably should save for them. I also just backed Scythe which looks amazing!
do take a good look at Perdition Mouth's rulebook is all I can say. It's certainly innovative, but I could also see it not appealing to everyone (I'm afraid it doesn't appeal to me too much, for example).
 
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Thibaud Dejardin
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Kelteel wrote:
And by a lot you mean the 2 out of currently 12 known enemy types in the tabletopia demo...
I may be wrong, but werewolves, raiders, squelettons, orc warriors and nightwalkers definetly look like melee guys.
Not enough infos about other foes.

In the retail game, that only leaves orc shamans to be different and wanting to stay away from the fight.
It would have been fun if raiders did some "hit and run" moves, maybe poisoning if they start at melee and running away, making it important for heroes to leave the fight to let it charge. Or making orcs to be stronger if they charge from far away.

If they are like in GD, boss fights might be lot of fun, the menace mechanic is really intresting.

A point to be noted is the fact that cards have replaced hexagonal tokens, making it really easier to add custom/fanmade content like new stuff and skills. SS looks vastly more easily expandable and sandbox than GD, and that's a good thing.

But the things making me love GD are not present in SS.
I can play a team with robocop, terminator, predator, neo and wall-e in GD. In comparison, the heroes from SS look really uninspired.
Different players, different tastes.

Quote:
do take a good look at Perdition Mouth's rulebook is all I can say. It's certainly innovative, but I could also see it not appealing to everyone (I'm afraid it doesn't appeal to me too much, for example).
It has some similarities with Gloomhaven and fireteam zero (I both backed), but the rondel mechanic and "negative level up" is indeed not for everyone. Definetly for me.
 
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Antivelar wrote:
Thanks a lot for all the comments. I really like hearing the positives and negatives. I am Portuguese so I might watch the Brazilians play the game.
It's not in portuguese though. It's in english. Still worth a watch. I think it is the best example of the feel of gameplay to date.
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Paul Bauman
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Logus Vile wrote:
Antivelar wrote:
Thanks a lot for all the comments. I really like hearing the positives and negatives. I am Portuguese so I might watch the Brazilians play the game.
It's not in portuguese though. It's in english. Still worth a watch. I think it is the best example of the feel of gameplay to date.
If anything Perdition's Mouth is the bigger gamble. I understand the strength of the designer pedigree, but that design and the campaign are looking rough to me. Way too much crowdsourcing of the campaign approach for starters, right out of the gate, which might be fine for some in terms of transparency and whatnot but to me it just indicates lack of confidence & experience. I'll be tracking it, but it does not strike me as a campaign for the risk averse.
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Geoff ...
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Timo brought Perdition's Mouth to Essen for the past three years I believe, so I dont think we'll see a half-baked design. I know Rahdo's was enamoured with the game, but he also liked S&S quite a bit.

PM has a strong if rather grim fantasy theme.
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John Middleton
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Rahdo is enamoured of damn near everything anymore.

I can't afford to buy all the games he likes.
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David Hammel
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DegenerateElite wrote:
Rahdo is enamoured of damn near everything anymore.
I stopped watching his final thoughts altogether for that reason or because some mechanic doesn't fit the hardline care bear stance they seem to have. That said, I have found a lot of value in his top 10s and playthroughs.
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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Rahdo's list of fav dungeon crawlers:

S:C is certainly my favourite, but TBH i don't know that it will tick the boxes you're looking for. There is character advancement, but it is glacially slow, and a key component to RPGs (everyone having a unique role to fill) is largely absent. So if I were to put that aside and rank all the fantasy adventure games available now and coming, i guess it'd go:

Gloomhaven
Andor (new expansions will likely put this on top)
Catacombs
Claustrophobia
Assault on Doomrock (would go higher if it weren't so long)
Runebound 2nd ed (i expect 3rd ed will be lower for us)
Myth (*if* the rules ever get fixed, otherwise much lower)
Sword & Sorcery
Adventure of D (this would rank higher except its art is so terrible)
Pathfinder ACG
Perdition's Mouth (this would rank higher except it's a horror game)
Mage Knight


SOURCE: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20787368#20787368

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Richard Ham
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TheGreatHamEl wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
Rahdo is enamoured of damn near everything anymore.
I stopped watching his final thoughts altogether for that reason or because some mechanic doesn't fit the hardline care bear stance they seem to have.
Excellent call, I approve! Others should follow your lead, IMO

Quote:
That said, I have found a lot of value in his top 10s and playthroughs.
You FOOL! Don't be sucked in! sauron
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You can always wait until the reviews come out at retail and pick up the base game. Particularly if you're a casual gamer (ie. don't play the same game each week and only need the base game and maybe an expansion) and have a closetful of games you enjoy, you can always wait for a sale. Better than KickGuessing five $100+ games, only for four of them to sit in the closet doing nothing. Sure, you won't get as good of a deal as the backers, but you'll have a better idea of what to buy once all these dungeoncrawlers hit retail. We'll have, what, six of them in three months by mid-November???
 
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Alex Johnson
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This one is coming down to a coin flip for me. I am really interested in getting a good dungeon crawler game; and while I have read the rule book and watched the videos (some GD stuff too) I still do not have a solid grasp on what the campaign's progression will feel like. I wish i had a friend with Galaxy Defenders so I could give it a try and get a feel for the AI's mechanics.

So yea, coin flip. Either I hold my EB and get Act 1, Act 2, and the side quest for $99 plus shipping or I wait for release/reviews and them pick it all up (minus exclusives) for $110-$135 from an OLGS some time after release.
 
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Skaak
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Ju66ernaut wrote:
I still do not have a solid grasp on what the campaign's progression will feel like.
What in particular are you wondering about? I'd be happy to describe in more detail how the campaign works, if that will help one way or the other.
 
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Ju66ernaut wrote:
This one is coming down to a coin flip for me. I am really interested in getting a good dungeon crawler game; and while I have read the rule book and watched the videos (some GD stuff too) I still do not have a solid grasp on what the campaign's progression will feel like. I wish i had a friend with Galaxy Defenders so I could give it a try and get a feel for the AI's mechanics.

So yea, coin flip. Either I hold my EB and get Act 1, Act 2, and the side quest for $99 plus shipping or I wait for release/reviews and them pick it all up (minus exclusives) for $110-$135 from an OLGS some time after release.
It's a tough call as are most Kickstarters with regards to gameplay. Until they come out to the mass market, there won't be enough reviews and gameplay examples to make a more educated guess.

All I can say is that I think Galaxy Defenders has a great AI system. Every alien in that game has a different behaviour and as a player you try to exploit it as much as possible. Some people may think that is "gaming the system" but in fact that is what this is: a game you try to beat because you're not playing against a human opponent. The thing is with Galaxy Defenders is that the game is hard so no matter how hard you try to "game the system" the system beats you down! Also, I play on hard mode because I like that challenge too so there's that.

I don't know if that helped, but based on my experience with Galaxy Defenders I'm confident in Sword & Sorcery. Especially if you keep in mind that Galaxy Defenders is more a tactical strategy board game while Sword & Sorcery aims to be more a Hack & Slash dungeon crawl board game.
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Alex Johnson
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I think that the motivation for my concern probably has more to do with the genre than the game itself. I am more of a casual gamer right now and feel that it may be hard to coerce people in my gaming group to give this one a try. Set-up isn't too great of a concern because I can always arrive early and prep. The people I play games with mostly have a background in video games, and I find that most of us have all done a 2-3 year tour of World of Warcraft at some point in our lives. I feel that this game will bring back some of that nostalgia, which is great.

Okay, let me really think this out. These are my concerns:

How easily can players enter/leave the campaign if I am unable to form and maintain a dedicated group?

How variable are the enemies really? We know that "level 1 - Slash attack" enemies can be interchanged with each other for variety, but we do not know how many enemies exist for each level or attack archetype.

Continuing that thought, when will an enemy no longer represent a challenge? We see some gremlins in the first quest on TableTopia. While they present a challenge to Soul Rank 1 characters, will they be all but useless against Soul Rank 3 or 4 characters later in the campaign? Will they only pop up in the first scenario or two and then be deemed too easy for later use? Can they be dialed up a notch to present more of a challenge later on?

What are some of the AI mechanics? I did a bit of research into Galaxy Defenders and see that there are enemy AI's that are driven to push melee, some that want to hover about an area away and attack at range, etc... What else fills in the etc in this game? I understand that Gremlins can form a group and pull characters away form their location. It would be nice to know how more units acted and what will make them feel different from one another.

How luck based is combat? I think the change to the defense system from GD is cool, giving each unit a max defense as well as offering the players armor that can be upgraded over time. I have to think that this will definitely be deeper than Zombicide: BP.

Lol, at this point I think I am just mumbling to myself. I'm going to head to the gym and give it some more thought. I think that overall my issues are much more subjective than objective.

 
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