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John Prados' Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: Air units landing range rss

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Alexandre Lanciani
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Ciao,

according to 11.22:
Quote:
Air units that perform any type of combat mission (that is, anything other than just moving) may land at the airbase from which they started the mission, or at any friendly or allied airbase that is within their printed range from their starting airbase.
Is this correct? I always thought they could land within the printed range from the mission hex, instead. Otherwise they could end up moving twice the range before landing (if the landing hex and the mission hex are on the opposite sides of the starting airbase).

Or maybe the rule as written simulate a free staging movement after the mission.

Thanks in advance,
Alex

 
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Colin Raitt
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We play them as written. So TAC can fly 4 hexes and support a ground attack. Then they seem to return to their original base and can rebase 4 hexes from there.

In air offensives an air unit that doesn't perform any other mission can change base up to 2x its printed range during an offensive(rule 11.21 line 4 and rule 4.34).

In strategic redeployment air units can make any number of hops of double their range (rule 7.31).

TAC coming off sea control at the end of the turn can land on any base in or bordering the sea zone (rule 6.9).



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Alexandre Lanciani
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polate wrote:

In air offensives an air unit that doesn't perform any other mission can change base up to 2x its printed range during an offensive(rule 11.21 line 4 and rule 4.34).
This is what puzzles me. An unit that performs a mission can move farther that one that does nothing but move (during an impulse, that is). For a TAC, this means up to 12 hexes (between the movement to the mission hex, return to base and rebase) vs 8.

Still, if there are no errata on this rule we'll stick with it.

Thanks,
Alex
 
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Gary Krockover
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How are you getting 12?

Range 4 TAC:

1) If rebasing (only), it can fly 8 hexes to a new base.
2) If on the offensive, it can fly 4 hexes to a target and then 4 hexes to it's originating base or one beyond (within 4 hexes). That's 8 total hexes, but the target must be within 4.

I think that you're adding an extra "rebase" in there for 4 more mp's which it doesn't have/can't use.
 
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Alexandre Lanciani
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GaryJK wrote:
How are you getting 12?

Range 4 TAC:

2) If on the offensive, it can fly 4 hexes to a target and then 4 hexes to it's originating base or one beyond (within 4 hexes). That's 8 total hexes, but the target must be within 4.

Indeed, it's within 4 hexes of the originating base. Say it moves 4 hexes to the mission hex, and then possibly 8 hexes to the landing hex (both mission hex and landing hex have to be within 4 hexes of the starting base, but if they are opposite it means they are 8 hexes apart). Hence it's 4 + 8 = 12 hexes moved.

Now I agree that it is possibly misleading to think of air operations as a single mission. During the 3 months turn in which ground units fight each other on the hex, air units are probably coming and going from the airbase. And it's true that the range covered by the planes is still 8 hexes.
 
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Gary Krockover
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I'm still unclear as to how you're flying 8 hexes beyond the target hex when you can only fly 4 more to base? At least that's my understanding of what I'm reading in the rules:

Base....4 hexes to target....4 hexes to rebase (be it original or other, 8 hexes total allowed).

I think that you may be combining the 4 hexes to target and then the 8 hexes beyond to get back to another base which (again, my understanding) is incorrect.
 
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Alexandre Lanciani
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Not beyond the target... Behind the base, actually.

Let's see if with a graph I can explain myself (probably boardgamegeek allows fancier stuff but I think this is enough).

The rule allows to target an hex 4 hexes away, then land at an hex within 4 hexes of the starting base, correct? So this is possible:

t - h - h - h - b - h - h - h - l

where t is the target, b is the original base and l is the landing hex. h are hexes in between (and suppose everything is in a straight line).

So your TAC moves 4 hex towards the target, then flies back 4 hexes over the base and 4 more hexes to its landing hex (which is within 4 hexes from the starting base). In total, it moved 12 hexes.
 
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Gary Krockover
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I'm certainly no expert with these rules, but the way that I play it and the way that I read it is that what you're proposing can't be done. You can't fly out 4 hexes to a target, fly 4 back to your base and then keep going another 4 to a different base.

My understanding is that you have the following choices:

1. Leave base. Fly 4 hexes to target. Fly 4 hexes to RTB (same base).
2. Leave base. Fly 4 hexes to target. Fly up to 4 hexes to base elsewhere.
3. Leave base, fly up to 8 hexes to land at another base.

Again, I think that you're combining an action where an air unit fly's an offensive mission with one that only moves. What you propose allows an air unit to fly both and (granted) it doesn't say that they can only do one or the other, I think this is what it means when the rules say "Air units just moving from one airbase to another may move up to twice their printed range in hexes."

Maybe I'm playing it wrong or maybe the rules aren't worded quite definitively, but I *think* what I have here is the intent of the rules.
 
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Gary Krockover
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Actually, in reading 11.22 again, it's even more strict than I have it:

Quote:
Air units that perform any type of combat mission (that is, anything other than just moving) may land at the airbase from which they started the mission, or at any friendly or allied airbase that is within their printed range from their starting airbase.
So my revised list should read:

1. Leave base. Fly 4 hexes to target. Fly 4 hexes to RTB (same base).
2. Leave base. Fly 4 hexes to target. Fly up to 4 hexes from the originating base to base elsewhere.
3. Leave base, fly up to 8 hexes to land at another base.

Ugh, ok, now I see where you're getting your 4 extra hexes. RAW would seem to allow that but I'm going to stick with what I *think* the intent is and that is my original list. 4 out to target, 4 back to original base or 4 to another base from the target (not the original base).
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Alexandre Lanciani
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GaryJK wrote:
Actually, in reading 11.22 again, it's even more strict than I have it:

Ugh, ok, now I see where you're getting your 4 extra hexes. RAW would seem to allow that but I'm going to stick with what I *think* the intent is and that is my original list. 4 out to target, 4 back to original base or 4 to another base from the target (not the original base).
Indeed, this how I played (until I reread the rulesbook, that is). However maybe it makes sense. Consider:

1) The hexes moved through are still only 8, however some are crossed twice. In reality in a 3 months period they would actually be crossed many times, not just twice, as the planes come and go from the base to the mission hex to support the whole battle (and remember they also stay there for exploitation, if any!).

2) Since planes land at the end of the impulse, allowing them to land 4 hexes from the mission hex would let them land on an hex conquered for example during exploitation, i.e. 4 hexes beyond the enemy line. Maybe it's this far advance of air units that is being disallowed with this rule.

 
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