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These appear to disagree...

Learn to Play, pg 16 wrote:
Rumor Tokens
...
A rumor token remains as part of a hideout or a lair until there are no encounter cards on that location card or the location card on that hideout or lair is returned to Dracula’s location deck.


Rules Reference, pg 13 wrote:
Rumor Tokens
...
After a hideout is cleared, or if a lair is discarded, any rumor token on that hideout or lair is returned to the token pool.


If all encounter cards on a hideout/lair get removed (for whatever reason), should the Rumor Token stay there and potentially affect other encounter(s) that may be added in future? (eg. by revisiting a Lair & adding another encounter)

Or is the LtP correct, and the Rumor Token is removed if no encounter cards are left on a hideout/lair at any point?

Or have I misunderstood something, and the above quotes are effectively describing the same situations?

EDIT: OK, I forgot this part in the Rules Reference, which explains that a Lair cannot be left without any encounters, so that covers that part...
Rules Reference, pg. 10, Lairs wrote:
» If a lair has no encounter cards in it, Dracula clears the lair

EDIT 2: But this bit doesn't mean "when all encounters have been removed" does it? "Clearing" a hideout is a specific trigger/instruction, and not the same thing?
Rules Reference, pg. 9, Hideouts wrote:
» If a hideout is cleared, the location card is returned to the location deck, any encounter cards are discarded, and, if there is a rumor token, it is placed in the token pool.


EDIT 3: Amended subject to also reference related subject covered in the same discussion: What does 'Clear' mean?
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Re: When are Rumor Tokens removed from Hideout/Lair ?
I don't see any contradiction here.

When a "hideout [or lair] is cleared" that means "there are no encounter cards on that location card" anymore.

The things that cause a hideout/lair location card to be "returned to Dracula’s location deck" would be a hideout dropping off the end of the trail (without being converted to a lair) or "if a lair is discarded".

This is just two ways of saying the same thing. It's another example of imprecise and sloppy explanatory text, but with sound underlying mechanics.

P.S. It feels to me like the design team put in all the playtesting effect to get the game right, but did not follow through on playtesting the rules with outsiders, and putting the text through a rigorous editing process. (I suspect that was shortchanged in order to make a Halloween 2015 release deadline.)
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Re: When are Rumor Tokens removed from Hideout/Lair ?
OK, thanks. So it comes down to my "EDIT 2" above.

A hideout really is classed as "cleared" when it no longer has any encounter cards? And so it is removed from the trail, potentially leaving a gap?

I had assumed to this point that to "clear" a hideout/lair was a specific action that involved removing the location card & any encounters/tokens with it.

I guess "Clearing a Hideout/Lair" should have been an entry in the glossary.
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Re: When are Rumor Tokens removed from Hideout/Lair ?
Pudsy wrote:
A hideout really is classed as "cleared" when it no longer has any encounter cards? And so it is removed from the trail, potentially leaving a gap?

Hmmm... but that can't be right can it?

LtP pg 12 says, under Ambushing: "After a hunter ends his movement on a hideout that has one or more encounter cards in it, Dracula can choose to ambush that hunter." Almost implies that hideouts can exist without encounter cards...?

There's even an example in the LtP pg 9, where they show sliding the hideouts along to the right. One of them has no encounter cards on it (not the one just being added, but the oldest one, on the RHS)

Thought I understood most of the rules by now, but suddenly doubting myself.

EDIT: Is it as I first thought? Only lairs are automatically removed from the board ("cleared") when they have no encounter cards left on them. But this doesn't apply to hideouts?
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Re: When are Rumor Tokens removed from Hideout/Lair ?
Pudsy wrote:
EDIT: Is it as I first thought? Only lairs are automatically removed from the board ("cleared") when they have no encounter cards left on them. But this doesn't apply to hideouts?


Encounter cards could be removed from hideouts when searched and resolved. That wouldn't remove the hideout itself, before it fell of the 6th position. At least that's how I've been reading the rules.
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Re: When are Rumor Tokens removed from Hideout/Lair ?
Right, that's how I'd interpreted the rules too...

But then that takes us back to my first query:
If a hideout is left without any encounter cards, is the Rumor Token removed too?

It wasn't clear between the first 2 quotes in my original post:
LtP says yes.
RR says it's only removed when the hideout is "cleared".

So does "cleared" only happen when a specific card instruction tells you to clear it? (eg. matured vampire) - which would also involve removing the location card itself.

Or does "cleared" also mean when there are no more encounters left on the hideout?
 
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Re: When are Rumor Tokens removed from Hideout/Lair ?
Pudsy wrote:
Right, that's how I'd interpreted the rules too...

But then that takes us back to my first query:
If a hideout is left without any encounter cards, is the Rumor Token removed too?

It wasn't clear between the first 2 quotes in my original post:
LtP says yes.
RR says it's only removed when the hideout is "cleared".

So does "cleared" only happen when a specific card instruction tells you to clear it? (eg. matured vampire) - which would also involve removing the location card itself.

Or does "cleared" also mean when there are no more encounters left on the hideout?

It's the last.

"Clearing" a hideout (or lair) means removing all Encounter cards from it, and at that point any Rumor token on it is also removed. But there's nothing in the rules that says the location card itself is removed from the trail at that point.

However, when a location card is removed from the trail (or a lair is removed) for any reason, it is also effectively cleared, i.e. any encounter cards and rumor tokens on it are removed. That's all the rules you quoted are trying to say, but I agree they could be clearer.
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Re: When are Rumor Tokens removed from Hideout/Lair ?
Are we sure...? (emphasis mine in quotes below)

FOR HIDEOUTS...
This seems pretty definitive that the location card is removed when you're told to "clear" a hideout...
Learn to Play, pg. 11 wrote:
Vampire Encounters
...
The matured effect on a vampire encounter instructs a player to
clear specific hideouts on the trail. When a hideout is cleared, all location cards in that hideout are returned to the location deck, all encounter cards in that hideout are discarded, and all tokens in that hideout are placed in the token pool.
(EDIT: but stating "locations" (plural) seems excessive - there can't be more than 1 in a hideout can there?)

and...
Rules Reference, pg 9 wrote:
Hideout
...
If a hideout is cleared, the location card is returned to the location deck, any encounter cards are discarded, and, if there is a rumor token, it is placed in the token pool.


FOR LAIRS...
this bit seems to imply that "clearing a lair" is something that can be done after all encounter cards are already removed from it... which would mean that "clearing" entails removing the location card too + any tokens...
Learn to Play, pg. 15 wrote:
Lairs
...
Dracula may clear a lair at any time, and he must clear a lair if all encounter cards are removed from that lair.

and...
Rules Reference, pg 10 wrote:
Lairs
...
When Dracula clears a lair, he places all encounter cards from that lair in the encounter card discard pile. Then, he returns any damage and rumor tokens in that lair to the token pool, and returns the location card in that lair to the location deck.
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Huh. OK, I'd missed that bit from the Rules Reference even though I see you quoted it in your OP! blush

So I was wrong about what "cleared" means: evidently it means when the location is removed from your trail (or from being a lair) i.e. when it goes back in your deck.

But I don't see a contradiction here. The Rules Reference tells us a rumor token is returned if the hideout it's on is cleared. The Learn To Play tells us the same, but adds that it's also returned if there are no Encounters on that location.

Admittedly, that additional information should be in the Rules Reference too, but it doesn't contradict it; it simply doesn't mention that point at all.

Of course, it's possible this is an error in the Learn To Play, but I don't see any reason to suppose that's so - though it wouldn't surprise me!
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So, as I see it:


1. If there are no Encounter cards on a Hideout in the trail, or in a Lair, any rumor token there is removed. In the case of a Lair, the location card is removed too. In the case of a Hideout, the location card remains on the trail.

2. When a Hideout or Lair is cleared, all Encounter cards and rumor tokens are removed from it, and the location card returns to the Dracula player's hand.


Does that make sense? Or am I still misunderstanding something?
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Yep, good concise explanation, thanks!

Cool, so we agree on all that.
"Clearing" means to remove everything (location, encounters, tokens) from the space on the board (hideout or lair).

So all that remains is the part you just mentioned in the LtP, which was what caused my initial confusion at the start of the thread...
Learn to Play, pg 16 wrote:
Rumor Tokens
...
A rumor token remains as part of a hideout or a lair until there are no encounter cards on that location card or the location card on that hideout or lair is returned to Dracula’s location deck.

So we think the most sensible interpretation is that this part is correct, and it should have also been mentioned in the Rules Reference somewhere, as an additional situation where Rumor Tokens are removed (besides the other situation, when a hideout/lair is completely "cleared").

But we can't be certain, as the LtP has been wrong in other areas!
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Pudsy wrote:
So we think the most sensible interpretation is that this part is correct, and it should have also been mentioned in the Rules Reference somewhere, as an additional situation where Rumor Tokens are removed (besides the other situation, when a hideout/lair is completely "cleared").

But we can't be certain, as the LtP has been wrong in other areas!

Yes, that's exactly how I see it. cool
 
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A shorthand to understand this is thematic.

Hideouts and lairs only exist as long as there are nefarious things going on there. (Encounters). Rumors can only exist where nefarious things are going on.

When those things stop happening, there can be no rumours - as there's nothing to have a rumour about! When a lair has no encounter, it stops being a lair, as there's nothing there. When a hideout has no encounter, it stops being a hideout, as nothing is lurking in it, but there's still some evidence that Dracula passed through (so it remains a location on the trail).
 
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Pudsy wrote:
So all that remains is the part you just mentioned in the LtP, which was what caused my initial confusion at the start of the thread...
Learn to Play, pg 16 wrote:
Rumor Tokens
...
A rumor token remains as part of a hideout or a lair until there are no encounter cards on that location card or the location card on that hideout or lair is returned to Dracula’s location deck.

So we think the most sensible interpretation is that this part is correct, and it should have also been mentioned in the Rules Reference somewhere, as an additional situation where Rumor Tokens are removed (besides the other situation, when a hideout/lair is completely "cleared").

But we can't be certain, as the LtP has been wrong in other areas!

What would be the effect of a rumor token persisting after all encounters at a location are gone? With no encounter, there is nothing to score. There is no fooling the hunters, as they see there is no encounter. The sole effect would be to keep Dracula from being able to get the token back and placing it on a new hideout.

Since LtP says to recycle the rumor, and RR fails to mention this, but does not contradict it, I'd return the rumor to the rumor pool (barring any official ruling to the contrary).
 
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Yep, that all makes sense to me, especially the thematic viewpoint.
Thanks guys!

randiv wrote:
What would be the effect of a rumor token persisting after all encounters at a location are gone? With no encounter, there is nothing to score. There is no fooling the hunters, as they see there is no encounter. The sole effect would be to keep Dracula from being able to get the token back and placing it on a new hideout.

The only purpose I could think of would be if some effect allowed an empty hideout to later regain an encounter (eg. turning a hideout into a lair & adding a card).

But, following the thematic argument, it wouldn't make sense if a previous rumour applied to a newly-added encounter...

...although I guess there's nothing to stop eg. a vampire encounter being added to a hideout/lair that already has a rumour token & some other encounter card(s). In which case, when it matures, the rumour would be applied to that vampire encounter which wasn't present when the rumour was added. Hehe!
 
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randiv wrote:
...to keep Dracula from being able to get the token back and placing it on a new hideout.

Just checking here, as I thought these rumour tokens went back into the supply pool, rather than back into Dracula's play area.

The Rules Reference mentions putting them in the token pool (RR:"Rumor Tokens"), or removing them from the game (RR:"Maturing"), depending on which part you read. I think there may be more references too, usually to putting them back in the pool. As consistent as ever!

But I think the end result is that they are 1-time use things...? Whatever happens, once Dracula puts them on a card, he doesn't get them back?
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Pudsy wrote:
randiv wrote:
...to keep Dracula from being able to get the token back and placing it on a new hideout.

Just checking here, as I thought these rumour tokens went back into the supply pool, rather than back into Dracula's play area.

The Rules Reference mentions putting them in the token pool (RR:"Rumor Tokens"), or removing them from the game (RR:"Maturing"), depending on which part you read. I think there may be more references too, usually to putting them back in the pool. As consistent as ever!

But I think the end result is that they are 1-time use things...? Whatever happens, once Dracula puts them on a card, he doesn't get them back?

Interesting. We agree that the rumor token gets "returned to the token pool" -- but I still thought that meant Dracula could use it again.

But I revisited LtP and "Token Pool" is defined (p. 4) as the area where things go before they have become available to players (e.g. undrawn rail tickets). So, on further review, I think you are correct: once Dracula places a rumor token he doesn't get it back.

Of course, with that settled, the previous discussion of whether the rumor token stays on a location without encounters is now all but moot. All but: it still matters if a location is converted to a lair which is then converted to a hideout whether it then could potentially mature again.
 
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randiv wrote:
Pudsy wrote:
randiv wrote:
...to keep Dracula from being able to get the token back and placing it on a new hideout.

Just checking here, as I thought these rumour tokens went back into the supply pool, rather than back into Dracula's play area.

The Rules Reference mentions putting them in the token pool (RR:"Rumor Tokens"), or removing them from the game (RR:"Maturing"), depending on which part you read. I think there may be more references too, usually to putting them back in the pool. As consistent as ever!

But I think the end result is that they are 1-time use things...? Whatever happens, once Dracula puts them on a card, he doesn't get them back?

Interesting. We agree that the rumor token gets "returned to the token pool" -- but I still thought that meant Dracula could use it again.

But I revisited LtP and "Token Pool" is defined (p. 4) as the area where things go before they have become available to players (e.g. undrawn rail tickets). So, on further review, I think you are correct: once Dracula places a rumor token he doesn't get it back.

Of course, with that settled, the previous discussion of whether the rumor token stays on a location without encounters is now all but moot. All but: it still matters if a location is converted to a lair which is then converted to a hideout which is then matured.


I don't think it really matters whether the token goes back to the pool or out of the game.

4 tokens are provided and Dracula gets one at the start and one starting each following week. When he gets the fourth token, the third despair token will be placed at the same time, so 3 influence will be added every time a City card or Hide is added to the trail. On that basis I would have thought that the chance that the game hasn't finished before he would get a fifth token is close to zero.

Edit: I also note that the trigger for gaining a rumour token is the placement of a despair token. Only 3 despair tokens will ever be placed, so Dracula can never gain more than 3 rumour tokens after his staring one.
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Yep, so 4 tokens max, matching the box contents, 1 use each.

That just leaves the question of whether the rumour token lingers after all encounter cards are removed from a hideout... which we suspect it doesn't.

But I've just put a question in to FFG to make sure, so will let you know.

BTW I haven't heard back on a couple of other queries I've had pending since early in the week. I guess they may have been busy with everyone's questions flooding in! whistle
 
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Whether the encounter cards on a location are removed due to the hunters resolving them or an effect calls for the hideout to be cleared, the Rumor Tokens are removed and placed back in the token pool.

The last paragraph of the Learn to Play guide, page 16 reads:

A rumor token remains as part of a hideout or lair until there are no encounter cards on that location card or the location card on that hideout or lair is returned to Dracula's location deck. When a rumor token is removed from a location or hideout, it is returned to the token pool.

 
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Personally, I don't see the point of leaving Rumor tokens on Lairs. Why would Dracula ever NOT mature a vampire that drops off his trail? Why would a hunter ever search a Lair location? It serves no functional purpose at that point (unless Dracula were to leave a vampire in the Lair, then later move to that Lair location and move it back to his trail, then hope for it to drop off the trail again to mature it - a rather absurd process!).
 
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squash wrote:
Personally, I don't see the point of leaving Rumor tokens on Lairs. Why would Dracula ever NOT mature a vampire that drops off his trail? Why would a hunter ever search a Lair location? It serves no functional purpose at that point (unless Dracula were to leave a vampire in the Lair, then later move to that Lair location and move it back to his trail, then hope for it to drop off the trail again to mature it - a rather absurd process!).


One situation I can think of...

If Dracula had a surplus of vampire encounters in his hand, he could add 2 or more in close succession. This might act as insurance against the hunters finding/defeating one.

Now usually, when the first one matures, it would clear the next 3 spaces on the trail (slots 4/5/6). BUT, if 2 or more adjacent vampires made it to the end of the trail, Dracula could opt to convert the first hideout to a lair instead of maturing it. And then mature the next one on the next turn.

That way you don't waste any extra vampires that make it all the way along the trail, and you can revisit the lair later (adding more encounters, possibly even another vampire). Admittedly, you'd still have to wait another 6 turns for it to be available to mature again, but you haven't lost anything in the meantime.
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If I had a rumored vampire and a non-rumored vampire that close, I would always choose the former unless the non-rumor camp up first and I thought the rumor was already at risk...
 
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