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Subject: Firecombat, Penetration and Rout Qs rss

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Fred Hartig
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Hello!
Maybe someone can help me with a few questions (SL 4th edition).

A: Rule 8.4 states that a unit can fire its inherent firepower at one hex and one or more of its support weapons separately at a different hex.

1. Can a unit with 2 LMG fire at a maximum of 2 or 3 different hexes?
2. When firing separately at different hexes, is a separate Fire Combat Dice roll needed for each hex, or do you still roll only once?
3. Does a Leader influences only the attack against a single hex when stacked with the unit or against all hexes?

B: Routing towards known enemy positions is forbidden.
1. What happens if the "known enemy position" is a broken enemy unit? Is it still forbidden to rout towards this broken enemy unit?
2. What happens if the "known enemy position" is a lone Leader without a support weapon?

C: MGs (and other support weapons) and penetration rules (Defensive Fire example on p. 6)
1. I do not understand this example.
If Stahlers group fires at L3, shouldn't the LOF of the LMG extend to the NW and not to the West?
2. If this is just an example for rule 8.4 (separate attack on different hex with the LMG), why is the attack at G4 still resolved with the same dice roll and the same Leader modifier? Isn't it a separate attack?

Thanks

Fred
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Gustavo Jornet
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Fred22 wrote:

A: Rule 8.4 states that a unit can fire its inherent firepower at one hex and one or more of its support weapons separately at a different hex.

1. Can a unit with 2 LMG fire at a maximum of 2 or 3 different hexes?
2. When firing separately at different hexes, is a separate Fire Combat Dice roll needed for each hex, or do you still roll only once?
3. Does a Leader influences only the attack against a single hex when stacked with the unit or against all hexes?


1. With two LG a squad can still use its inherent firepower. So it can fire up to three different hexes.
2. Different targets = different rolls. Three rolls, then.
3. The leader can support only one attack.
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Gustavo Jornet
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Fred22 wrote:

B: Routing towards known enemy positions is forbidden.
1. What happens if the "known enemy position" is a broken enemy unit? Is it still forbidden to rout towards this broken enemy unit?
2. What happens if the "known enemy position" is a lone Leader without a support weapon?


1. 13.42 (in 4th edition rules) states "can't rout towards enemy known positions of unbroken units"
2. I think that question is covered in the extensive Q&A file. If I remind correctly the unit can rout towards him, because is not a threat. Another "what if" would be if he is manning an MG. I think he was given the normal range of the manned MG.
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Gustavo Jornet
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Fred22 wrote:

C: MGs (and other support weapons) and penetration rules (Defensive Fire example on p. 6)
1. I do not understand this example.
If Stahlers group fires at L3, shouldn't the LOF of the LMG extend to the NW and not to the West?
2. If this is just an example for rule 8.4 (separate attack on different hex with the LMG), why is the attack at G4 still resolved with the same dice roll and the same Leader modifier? Isn't it a separate attack?


The key to both questions is to take benefit of the penetration rule.
1. You must consider that Stahler is pointing towards A4 and then he can also fire to whatever unit (giving penetration limitations) is in the LOS line or adjacent if the LOS goes along the hexside (as happens with L3). If Stahler would consider L3 as his primary target, yes the LOS would go North West. But he is smart
2. As he can get the benefit of firing at different enemies DUE PENETRATION, just one roll is needed.
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Gustavo Jornet
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I've answered to the best of my knowledge. Here are experts of SL, so please confirm / correct if I'm wrong.

Hope this helps.
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Scott B
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Quote:
B: Routing towards known enemy positions is forbidden.
1. What happens if the "known enemy position" is a broken enemy unit? Is it still forbidden to rout towards this broken enemy unit?
2. What happens if the "known enemy position" is a lone Leader without a support weapon?


1. any known enemy unit, even broken unit. A jeep too because it has an inherent driver. Not unmanned SWs. I think GJ's 13.41 quote is a little off.
2. a lone leader is a known enemy unit and a brokie can not rout closer if it in his LOS.

Note concealed units are not 'known enemy units' but 'suspected enemy units' and are not considered for routing (you can rout closer to concealed units). A tricky opponent will let you rout into open ground and then remove his concealment, eliminating the brokie if no alternate path is available.
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Scott B
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1974vertigo2009 wrote:
Fred22 wrote:

C: MGs (and other support weapons) and penetration rules (Defensive Fire example on p. 6)
1. I do not understand this example.
If Stahlers group fires at L3, shouldn't the LOF of the LMG extend to the NW and not to the West?
2. If this is just an example for rule 8.4 (separate attack on different hex with the LMG), why is the attack at G4 still resolved with the same dice roll and the same Leader modifier? Isn't it a separate attack?


The key to both questions is to take benefit of the penetration rule.
1. You must consider that Stahler is pointing towards A4 and then he can also fire to whatever unit (giving penetration limitations) is in the LOS line or adjacent if the LOS goes along the hexside (as happens with L3). If Stahler would consider L3 as his primary target, yes the LOS would go North West. But he is smart
2. As he can get the benefit of firing at different enemies DUE PENETRATION, just one roll is needed.


I agree with GJ and just want to add...

Against Squad A
a. Importantly, the LMG's target hex is G4 and he is starting penetration at L3 (it starts at any hex between him and the target hex, inclusive). He is also using 17.7 to effect the right side of the hex-spine ie: L3. If he had chosen L3 as the target hex, penetration would have missed G4. This is one hotshot of a 9-2 for seeing he can get two hexes out of this.

b. Note the penetration is doubled for Point Blank Fire and modified by both moving in open and the leader for a -4. This is the kind of shot players dream about.

c. He also chose to fire the squad at L3 and so must combine them into one Fire Combat (8.5). Both G4 and L3 are now resolved with one dice roll and the leadership modifier applies to both G4 and L3.

d. In your Question A, the squad and 2x LMG have three separate target hexes that are resolved as separate Fire Combats. In your Question C, a common hex is effected by the squad, a Mg or its penetration and they must combine and resolve with one Fire Combat.

e. Its useful to think of the leaders modifier like a squad's inherent FP, he can only use it once. If the squad and LMG fired at separate targets, he could chose one Fire Combat to modify. This also applies to close combat, he may chose one of any during the CC phase. If he attacks something directly (fire mg/'faust/AFV IM/ AFV CC) he must direct himself.
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Fred Hartig
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Thanks!

I checked 13.41. The wording is "...may not move towards known enemy positions.".
The status of the enemy unit is not specifically mentioned, so indeed you cannot rout towards a known enemy(broken or not) position.

Fred

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T. Dauphin
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You have had some good guidance from these gents, but I can see a couple of points that might cause some confusion.

A. The first is the routing rule. Scott gave you the correct answer and suggested that GJ had misquoted 13.41. In fact GJ was quoting from 13.42. 13.41 does say that a unit can not rout toward ANY known enemy unit. 13.42, however, talks about routing through an open ground hex, and in this case a broken unit would have no effect on the rout--except where the routing unit might attempt to move closer to the (broken) enemy unit, because this in not allowed according to 13.41. A broken enemy does not prevent a broken from routing through open ground.

One of the things to keep in mind, btw, is that a broken unit is in complete panic mode and isn't making strategic decisions, just ones about survival, and if you follow the rout rules very carefully, you'll find that you (rightly) have very little control over a routing units decisions.

C. Another (minor) point. Scott has correctly identified how, by making the furthest unit the original target (and you should actually identify it as so), the squad can also attack the nearer unit, because the LOF passes along the hex spine of the near hex. However, I'm sure Scott meant G4 not A4, because as the example points out, A4 cannot be fired at if the first two are, since the LMG has a penetration of only 2, and it would be used up by the time it got to A4.

To understand how this kind of shot is possible, just consider a mg as not a fixed firing gun, but as having a bit of sweep as it fires--just not a whole lot.

edit: OK, you caught that one before I got this up. Sat on my browser too long.

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Scott B
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Quote:
I'm sure Scott meant G4 not A4, because as the example points out,


Thank you, it should be G4. I have edited the original post to avoid confusion.
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