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Triumph & Tragedy» Forums » Variants

Subject: More Realistic Variant rss

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Edward Naut
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Start Germany and France both with 11 Cadres.

Axis's Hand is eight cards. When Axis uses Production for Cadres/CVs/Action cards/Investment cards, its first hand always includes the card with "Rocket Artillery--Factory 2--Sonar."

West's Hand grows from eight to nine when USA becomes a Satellite.

The above would be more realistic. Germany's edge was technique, not trained cadres. It's too easy for Germany to build a big navy with which to surprise Britain. Also, early, the French army was a near match for the German Army.

I think it's too easy to attack neutrals early in the game. In reality. powers, major and minor, freaked-out mucho when minor neutrals were attacked. For example, Britain and France gave guarantees to Poland, Yugoslavia and Greece just days after the Axis invasions of Czechoslovakia and Albania.

When a Violation of Neutrality occurs, then immediately after the resulting Combat, instead of drawing Action cards only, the non-Violating Rivals may choose to place Influence markers, or draw Investment cards. The Influence markers may be placed adjacent to any area controlled or occupied by the Violating Rival. The markers are placed in Player Turn Order. Satellites, Protectorates, and Associates are established immediately this way.



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Steve Duke
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Just curious, how many games with opponents have you played?
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Rick Byrens
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edan wrote:


I think it's too easy to attack neutrals early in the game. In reality. powers, major and minor, freaked-out mucho when minor neutrals were attacked. For example, Britain and France gave guarantees to Poland, Yugoslavia and Greece just days after the Axis invasions of Czechoslovakia and Albania.

How did that guarantee for Poland work out?
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John Griffey
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sduke wrote:
Just curious, how many games with opponents have you played?
That there is my sparring partner, Izquierdo Ed. I believe we have played eight games.
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Steve Duke
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Ok, so you've just played two-player games then?

Just trying to assess your experience and determine where you get the ideas from, not trying to be snarky.

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John Griffey
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sduke wrote:
Ok, so you've just played two-player games then?

Just trying to assess your experience and determine where you get the ideas from, not trying to be snarky.

No, they were all three player games. See my session reports.

I would amend Ed's idea so that the removal or placement of Influence takes place as soon as the Violation of Neutrality is declared. (The placement/removal could not be in an Associate because it becomes a Self-Defense Neutral atn the VoN.) USSR could remove, but not place Influence in reaction to Violations of Neutrality. No country wanted security guarantees from the Soviets. Also, in the game play, the USSR is most likely early to run wild with Violations of Neutrality in an historically implausible way.

I would also make Austria an Axis Associate at start as compensation for Germany's weaker, 11 Cadre variant set-up, and as it reflects that the German-Italian Axis formed in 1936 as a result of Italian anger over British-French opposition to the Italian invasion of Abyssinia. Beginning in 1936, without Italy backing Austrian independence, the Anschluss was just a matter of time. Also, I've in most of our games Austria does not become an Axis Satellite, the most likely outcome for that country. I would treat Austria as part of Germany once it becomes a Satellite.
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juerg haeberli
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Exactly what is the goal of your changes ?

English suprise.
I think we have established that England can be held although at the cost of FRance.

Germanys main edge was doctrin and leadership and trained ( meaning quality not quantity ) cadres.
Compare French ob to German ob in reality.

Attacking neutrals is about right for the game. ( Maybe not for reality )

The proposed changes will lead to a lot more "Sitzkrieg" games since agression is not rewarded.
Even under present condition its unclear if early Axis agression is a winning strategy.
Since an early agressive Axis option makes the game a lot more variable I believe the proposed changes would not be good for the game.
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John Griffey
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haeberich wrote:

Attacking neutrals is about right for the game. ( Maybe not for reality )

The proposed changes will lead to a lot more "Sitzkrieg" games since aggression is not rewarded.
Even under present condition its unclear if early Axis aggression is a winning strategy.
Since an early aggressive Axis option makes the game a lot more variable I believe the proposed changes would not be good for the game.
There's nothing to prevent USSR's early Violation of every Neutral near USSR, except for the unlikely possibility of an early West/Axis detente aimed against the USSR, which would lead to Axis/USSR war if USSR failed to head warnings from USSR's Rivals. The problem is that neither Axis nor West can easily trust one another, given their close proximity and mutual vulnerability to attack. Axis and West cannot so advantageously attack Neutrals early because they must focus early in the game on preparing for the many dangers of an early Axis versus West war.

I don't see Sitzkrieg resulting, only the reduction of the USSR's current strategic advantage. This would force the USSR to use more Influence, less brute force in the early game. When the Rivals have built their forces for three or four years in pursuit of their respective plans, they won't necessarily be intimidated by fear or creating more Rival Satellites and Protectorates.

I think it would also make an Axis anti-USSR strategy more likely to succeed, again by taking away some of the USSR's current advantage.

But, enough talk about the variant. We've got to try it, perhaps tonight.
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Steve Duke
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I will be curious to hear if another group tries this.

It is possible this is just the way your group plays the game and some different folks will have a different spin on what you've seen unfold in the eight games you say you've played.
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Craig Besinque
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Guys,

FYI, Tim Taylor is generating some "more historical" short scenarios that detail starting positions for 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942 for those that would like to try out more "on the rails" games of T&T.

He says they are close to ready, and should be out soon.

Craig
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Quinn DeCourcy
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There are a lot of ways to make T&T more realistic, more complex and longer. I think it's a great platform for the kind of innovation that Ed's crew is looking at. It would be hard to make the game shorter or less complex while keeping the flavor that we like.

When we were playtesting the game we would err on the side of brevity and simplicity except where the extra complexity was so cool that we couldn't resist it. Craig's original set up had influence markers all over the board that reflected the historical situation at the time. There were more exceptional rules; and these rules were good. I believe that the game is stronger in its published form; streamlined and fast, and fun.

I love hearing about variations on the game. There are some that I look forward to trying (I also had the idea of the random end time that has been talked in these forums). Let us know how it works out.
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juerg haeberli
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The only neurals I see in the beginning for the UdSSR are Romania, Finnland and Persia. Persia is doubtful since you might need your troups elsewhere.

After the game we had today ( session report will follow ) the agressive western approach for the Axis is under doubt.

So possible Axis alternate options are agressive turtle ( keep the peace and grab neutrals ) and going east.

The proposed changes bury the agressive turtle option.

Which straregy you finally choose will probabely be decided for the Axis by the card she draws and the first actions ( including production ) of the rivals in 36.

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Classy Andrew
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cbesinque wrote:
Guys,

FYI, Tim Taylor is generating some "more historical" short scenarios that detail starting positions for 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942 for those that would like to try out more "on the rails" games of T&T.

He says they are close to ready, and should be out soon.

Craig
Outstanding!
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Tom Willcockson
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Yes, absolutely. Decided to get this game even though I'm not a big alt history guy based on the positive feedback it is getting and tha fact that it looks like a lot of fun, but more historical scenarios and a basic WWII campaign game starting in 39 or 42 would be a huge plus for me.
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Jim F
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Game. for me, was a big disappointment on the history front - or what I hoped it would be.

Very interested in any variants that will give it some historical flavouring. Fun game but little to do with Europe in the 1930's.
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Steve Duke
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....in your opinion....
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King Maple
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cbesinque wrote:
Guys,

FYI, Tim Taylor is generating some "more historical" short scenarios that detail starting positions for 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942 for those that would like to try out more "on the rails" games of T&T.

He says they are close to ready, and should be out soon.

Craig
Was anything released regarding those?
 
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Marcus
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Slashdoctor wrote:
cbesinque wrote:
Guys,

FYI, Tim Taylor is generating some "more historical" short scenarios that detail starting positions for 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942 for those that would like to try out more "on the rails" games of T&T.

He says they are close to ready, and should be out soon.

Craig
Was anything released regarding those?
Yes, in C3i issue 30.
 
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Those of you who are interested in history, historical possibilities, and some added realism (admittedly at some cost in simplicity), you might want to check these out . . .

Poland 1939 Historical Playbook

Swiss Charred 1936-45

The Czechs Fight, 1938

Historical Technologies in T&T

[filepage=155192]Triumph & Tragedy - Experimental Changes[/filepage]

Dieter
 
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