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Subject: Twilight Sword specialization achieved at rank 3, but the first bonus is at rank 2. rss

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Twilight Sword specialization gives you -cumbersome at rank 2 proficiency. However, you do not even get the benefits of specialization until rank 3. Why not just make the bonus at rank 3? The only situation I can think of where this might matter is if you could somehow lose a rank of proficiency without switching weapons and keeping the TS specialization. Can this situation even happen?
 
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Joseph Nudi
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ELicious wrote:
Twilight Sword specialization gives you -cumbersome at rank 2 proficiency. However, you do not even get the benefits of specialization until rank 3. Why not just make the bonus at rank 3? The only situation I can think of where this might matter is if you could somehow lose a rank of proficiency without switching weapons and keeping the TS specialization. Can this situation even happen?
The twilight sword proficiency works differently from all other weapon proficiencies. The card overrides the standard rules for all other weapon types.

When you get two marks of weapon proficiency cumbersome goes away immediately.
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Blueskew wrote:
ELicious wrote:
Twilight Sword specialization gives you -cumbersome at rank 2 proficiency. However, you do not even get the benefits of specialization until rank 3. Why not just make the bonus at rank 3? The only situation I can think of where this might matter is if you could somehow lose a rank of proficiency without switching weapons and keeping the TS specialization. Can this situation even happen?
The twilight sword proficiency works differently from all other weapon proficiencies. The card overrides the standard rules for all other weapon types.

When you get two marks of weapon proficiency cumbersome goes away immediately.
Where does it say that?
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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On the Twilight Sword weapon proficiency card.
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ELicious wrote:
Blueskew wrote:
ELicious wrote:
Twilight Sword specialization gives you -cumbersome at rank 2 proficiency. However, you do not even get the benefits of specialization until rank 3. Why not just make the bonus at rank 3? The only situation I can think of where this might matter is if you could somehow lose a rank of proficiency without switching weapons and keeping the TS specialization. Can this situation even happen?
The twilight sword proficiency works differently from all other weapon proficiencies. The card overrides the standard rules for all other weapon types.

When you get two marks of weapon proficiency cumbersome goes away immediately.
Where does it say that?
Seconded: Where does it say that?

I played it as - You don't get proficiency until Rank 3, and then you automatically unlock the Rank 2 bonus on the card.
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Going off RAW, Page 43 is very specific that you don't gain the benefits of that card until you reach Specialization.

Of course, if we go off page 43, you can't actually select the Twilight Sword as a weapon for proficiency.

I guess it must come in an expansion and we just don't do it for now. whistle
 
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One might actually assume that because there is no Specialisation bonus, only three proficiency bonuses, that it does works differently.

But there is nothing confirming it does. The card says Specialisation and the rules state you gain the benefits of the Specialisation card at the milestone, which is your third proficiency level. P43

Your first holder of the Twilight sword will lose Cumbersome at level three when they gain their specialist milestone and the card is removed from the box.

When that survivor reaches weapon mastery they will disappear and all your other survivors will gain Twilight Sword Specialisation. If you chose to keep the sword, the second wielder, being specialised, will only need to gain two ranks of proficiency to ignore Cumbersome because the card is in your Innovation area.

Phoenix
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:
When that survivor reaches weapon mastery they will disappear and all your other survivors will gain Twilight Sword Specialisation. If you chose to keep the sword, the second wielder, being specialised, will only need to gain two ranks of proficiency to ignore Cumbersome because the card is in your Innovation area.

Phoenix
Twilight Sword mastery does NOT give specialization to your settlement as an innovation like the other weapons. Mostly because you can't really have multiple people with the sword.
 
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Symmetrical Docking wrote:

Of course, if we go off page 43, you can't actually select the Twilight Sword as a weapon for proficiency.
P121
“The survivor may select Twilight Sword as a weapon proficiency type.”

Phoenix
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Symmetrical Docking wrote:
Twilight Sword mastery does NOT give specialization to your settlement as an innovation like the other weapons. Mostly because you can't really have multiple people with the sword.
Page number or text from card please.

Phoenix
 
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Chengkai Yang
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What does multiple copies of a weapon have to do with it? My village can craft a single spear, get someone to master it, then pass that spear on, quantity has nothing to do with getting 8 ranks in specialization.
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Joseph Nudi
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Symmetrical Docking wrote:
Going off RAW, Page 43 is very specific that you don't gain the benefits of that card until you reach Specialization.

Of course, if we go off page 43, you can't actually select the Twilight Sword as a weapon for proficiency.

I guess it must come in an expansion and we just don't do it for now. whistle
We followed Joe's train of thought above. Twilight Sword isn't in the original list of weapon types that you can learn on the Weapon Proficiency page (we don't want to start an argument about sword vs twilight sword here...or do we?). As such we went to the card with p. 39s "when conflict arises over contradictions in rules, apply specific rules found on cards and story events before any rules found in the rulebook core rules sections".

Now you might be saying, technically there isn't a contradiction. And you'd be technically correct. The heading really addresses "rules interpretations, group decisions, and exceptions". I do feel that this falls into two of the latter categories at a minimum.

So in the absence of how to even gain the twilight sword proficiency we decided that at a minimum anyone with the twilight sword could gain the proficiency if they were eligible. (hell, go ahead and gain it even if you don't have it if you like...) Edit: Per Phoenix's comment, p. 121 does specify that you can gain the weapon proficiency. This weakens and strengthens the next point. On one hand, clear rules for gaining the proficiency. On the other hand, it isn't considered normal/core enough to include in the core list of types...so on to the card...

We followed that with the assumption that the intended design of that card, differing from all other proficiencies by having multiple milestones instead of a single milestone dictated by the character sheet at rank 3, was to provide new benefits to the TK upstart at weapon prof levels 2, 4, and 6. So we let the card take precedence over the core rules.

I agree that this could use some clarification/errata and as such others are completely entitled to their opinions on this matter. But this seemed the correct intent in our minds.

Hope this helps.
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draxx01 wrote:
What does multiple copies of a weapon have to do with it? My village can craft a single spear, get someone to master it, then pass that spear on, quantity has nothing to do with getting 8 ranks in specialization.
The TS is Rare Gear with only one copy available and it is Cursed. As such I don't believe you can gain a second copy and you cannot remove it from the gear grid of the person that holds it.

Does acquisition of gear follow the same rules as resources (if it isn't there to be taken in the box you can't gain it)? (at least I thought so)

If so I don't see any way that you could end up with two. Even if you could get a second copy via proxy or a second copy of the game very few circumstances should result in a second copy.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Only a restarted settlement via Phoenix or Clinging Mists come to mind...irreplaceable should rule out the dead survivor returning option. But maybe there are other ways I haven't seen yet.

 
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:
Symmetrical Docking wrote:

Of course, if we go off page 43, you can't actually select the Twilight Sword as a weapon for proficiency.
P121
“The survivor may select Twilight Sword as a weapon proficiency type.”
That's part of the Tattered Parcel sub-event of Hooded Knight, does that mean when you pass the sword on that that person cannot select it and be proficient? Or does it mean they can't then select a different proficiency and switch back to Twilight Sword later? Most abilities in the game tell you that you gain an ability, this one reads like any random event.

Edit: Even if you treat it like an ability, it doesn't pass down with the sword.

Phoenix_Bird wrote:
Symmetrical Docking wrote:
Twilight Sword mastery does NOT give specialization to your settlement as an innovation like the other weapons. Mostly because you can't really have multiple people with the sword.
Page number or text from card please.

Phoenix
I can't, because nothing says it doesn't.

However, nothing in the game says it does.

You'll note that every single weapon Mastery card does, except Twilight Sword.

You're welcome.
 
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Blueskew wrote:
Does acquisition of gear follow the same rules as resources (if it isn't there to be taken in the box you can't gain it)? (at least I thought so)

If so I don't see any way that you could end up with two. Even if you could get a second copy via proxy or a second copy of the game very few circumstances should result in a second copy.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Only a restarted settlement via Phoenix or Clinging Mists come to mind...irreplaceable should rule out the dead survivor returning option. But maybe there are other ways I haven't seen yet.

Directly from Adam, no it doesn't. You can have any amount of gear, it's not like resources.

However, I had never thought of restarting the settlement and having multiple hooded knight events! You could set it up to have 3 Twilight Knights in one run!
 
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Yeah, um, no - if your guy hits Rank 8 in Twilight Sword Mastery, he disappears, the sword is passed on or not depending on your choice, and the settlement does NOT gain Specialization in the weapon. You can tell by all the other special rules surrounding the sword that Mastery does not work the same way it does for the other Weapons.
 
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Symmetrical Docking wrote:
Blueskew wrote:
Does acquisition of gear follow the same rules as resources (if it isn't there to be taken in the box you can't gain it)? (at least I thought so)

If so I don't see any way that you could end up with two. Even if you could get a second copy via proxy or a second copy of the game very few circumstances should result in a second copy.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Only a restarted settlement via Phoenix or Clinging Mists come to mind...irreplaceable should rule out the dead survivor returning option. But maybe there are other ways I haven't seen yet.

Directly from Adam, no it doesn't. You can have any amount of gear, it's not like resources.

However, I had never thought of restarting the settlement and having multiple hooded knight events! You could set it up to have 3 Twilight Knights in one run!
This is untrue - the Twilight Sword has the keyword UNIQUE, which means that a max of one copy can exist in any Settlement at any given time.
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Elyklord wrote:
Symmetrical Docking wrote:
Directly from Adam, no it doesn't. You can have any amount of gear, it's not like resources.

However, I had never thought of restarting the settlement and having multiple hooded knight events! You could set it up to have 3 Twilight Knights in one run!
This is untrue - the Twilight Sword has the keyword UNIQUE, which means that a max of one copy can exist in any Settlement at any given time.
Just to be clear, the more gear than cards in box part IS true, just not in this specific case because of the Unique keyword.
 
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Elyklord wrote:
Symmetrical Docking wrote:
Blueskew wrote:
Does acquisition of gear follow the same rules as resources (if it isn't there to be taken in the box you can't gain it)? (at least I thought so)

If so I don't see any way that you could end up with two. Even if you could get a second copy via proxy or a second copy of the game very few circumstances should result in a second copy.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Only a restarted settlement via Phoenix or Clinging Mists come to mind...irreplaceable should rule out the dead survivor returning option. But maybe there are other ways I haven't seen yet.

Directly from Adam, no it doesn't. You can have any amount of gear, it's not like resources.

However, I had never thought of restarting the settlement and having multiple hooded knight events! You could set it up to have 3 Twilight Knights in one run!
This is untrue - the Twilight Sword has the keyword UNIQUE, which means that a max of one copy can exist in any Settlement at any given time.
Good point on Unique. I think Joe meant the general rule about gear cards vs resources and was answering that point of my question, but both good finds/reminders from both of you.

Thank you.
 
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The Twilight Sword has a weapon proficiency card and nowhere on that card, on the weapon’s gear card, or in the story event does it conflict with the rules. It gives clear instructions.

The Weapon Specialisation Card does not change your Milestones for Weapon Proficiency. You gain the card at level three. You gain EFFECTS at RANKS 2, 4 & 6.

It does not contradict the rules for Weapon Mastery on page 221 or 43. Nothing in those rules mention a minimum number of weapons your settlement needs to produce or possess in order to qualify for Weapon Mastery.

Other than gaining Proficiency from another Swordsmaster in your Settlement or being handed the sword originally by a Hooded Knight P121 there is no way a survivor may select proficiency Twilight Sword.

The Twilight Sword does not have the Unique keyword so your settlement can have more than one. But this doesn’t affect the Mastery or Specialisation discussion. Normally you would have only one that COULD be passed on from a Master to another survivor via their gear grid. As detailed on the card.

Phoenix
 
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Elyklord wrote:

This is untrue - the Twilight Sword has the keyword UNIQUE, which means that a max of one copy can exist in any Settlement at any given time.
Does it?

Did you write it on yourself?

Phoenix

 
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:
The Twilight Sword has a weapon proficiency card and nowhere on that card, on the weapon’s gear card, or in the story event does it conflict with the rules. It gives clear instructions.

The Weapon Specialisation Card does not change your Milestones for Weapon Proficiency. You gain the card at level three. You gain EFFECTS at RANKS 2, 4 & 6.

It does not contradict the rules for Weapon Mastery on page 221 or 43. Nothing in those rules mention a minimum number of weapons your settlement needs to produce or possess in order to qualify for Weapon Mastery.

Other than gaining Proficiency from another Swordsmaster in your Settlement or being handed the sword originally by a Hooded Knight P121 there is no way a survivor may select proficiency Twilight Sword.

The Twilight Sword does not have the Unique keyword so your settlement can have more than one. But this doesn’t affect the Mastery or Specialisation discussion. Normally you would have only one that COULD be passed on from a Master to another survivor via their gear grid. As detailed on the card.

Phoenix
However, this leads to an impossible situation unless the Mastery part discussed earlier is possible to have (and it seems to me that you can't have it unless someone shows otherwise...can't wait to get home and read my cards).

Even if you reach proficiency with a survivor, then lose a level, p.43 says that you only keep these benefits "while their milestone remains filled". So if you had specialization, then lost a level from 3 back down to 2, you lose the benefit of the rank 2 weapon mastery specialization per the card.

Again, the intent seems clear to me that the TK gets the specialization effect of their weapon specialization at rank two and drops cumbersome. Otherwise, it would have been listed at rank 3 on the card instead of being an "impossible to gain" benefit at rank 2. As before, I completely understand if other folks don't play it that way and wait for the errata, but the intent seems to be for the card to override the core rules for normal specialization. At this point it comes down to whether or not you believe that there is a contradiction, dispute, or otherwise between normal spec and tk spec.

All that said, The TK Variant in the back of the book starts at WP3 which is interesting, but could have been simply the intended starting point.
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:
Other than gaining Proficiency from another Swordsmaster in your Settlement or being handed the sword originally by a Hooded Knight P121 there is no way a survivor may select proficiency Twilight Sword.
You seem to be advocating RAW instead of What Makes Sense. So pray tell how the person you pass the sword onto can even choose proficiency "Twilight Sword"?

Phoenix_Bird wrote:
The Twilight Sword does not have the Unique keyword so your settlement can have more than one. But this doesn’t affect the Mastery or Specialisation discussion. Normally you would have only one that COULD be passed on from a Master to another survivor via their gear grid. As detailed on the card.
Thank you for this, Phoenix, I trusted Elyklord because he's very good at rules stuff, he must have gotten flustered up by accident. Was it so much that it deserved you responding to his assertion TWICE? probably not.


Now let's talk about what's important, using Clinging Mists to have three Twilight Knights, and how the hell Hooded Knight works in that situation.
 
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Symmetrical Docking wrote:
Phoenix_Bird wrote:
Other than gaining Proficiency from another Swordsmaster in your Settlement or being handed the sword originally by a Hooded Knight P121 there is no way a survivor may select proficiency Twilight Sword.
You seem to be advocating RAW instead of What Makes Sense. So pray tell how the person you pass the sword onto can even choose proficiency "Twilight Sword"?

Phoenix_Bird wrote:
The Twilight Sword does not have the Unique keyword so your settlement can have more than one. But this doesn’t affect the Mastery or Specialisation discussion. Normally you would have only one that COULD be passed on from a Master to another survivor via their gear grid. As detailed on the card.
Thank you for this, Phoenix, I trusted Elyklord because he's very good at rules stuff, he must have gotten flustered up by accident. Was it so much that it deserved you responding to his assertion TWICE? probably not.


Now let's talk about what's important, using Clinging Mists to have three Twilight Knights, and how the hell Hooded Knight works in that situation.
Clearly all of them face the TK. Unless you roll a 1-3. Then they just leave after that person perishes.

Or they all add their TS proficiencies together.

Or the bearer of the TS sword might refer to a bear with a Twilight Sword. I'd say that if you have a bear with a sword they probably win, but if they attack with their claws they get Deadly because they're basically like the lion's katars.

(I'm tired and it's Friday, just try to enjoy the show)
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Yeah, I can't help but notice that it uses nothing but singular phrases.

Well, by RAW it must only confront THE bearer of the Twilight Sword. To my knowledge, this must be Allison. The only one who deserves the "THE."

We can assume that bearer is a typo, so that means that Allison is actually a Bear(-er).

I'll see if I can scrounge up some art of Allison the TK in her true form.
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