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Subject: Leader question regarding points rss

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RJ O

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If you have a kingdom with 2 of the same color tiles and there is currently no leaders in the kingdom and then place a leader there is it one point or two?

Thanks in advance

RJ
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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If there is no leader in the region, then it is not a kingdom. Watch your terminology, because there is a difference between the two!

The answer to your question is 'zero' because leader placement does not yields any VPs (unless the leader causes an internal conflict, or ends up being connected to a monument).
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Jurgen Koller
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The act of placing leaders does not give you points unless you cause an internal conflict. The act of placing tiles potentially will give points if the leader colour matching the tile placed is present in the kingdom regardless of who owns it. If no leader of the matching colour is present then the player who owns the black leader will get the point. If neither condition is met no one gets a point.
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Chris Lawson
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Hajjir2 wrote:
If you have a kingdom with 2 of the same color tiles and there is currently no leaders in the kingdom and then place a leader there is it one point or two?
Maarten above provided the answers I was going to give but I must ask...

Why do think that placing a Leader like this would get one or two VPs? I wonder if there is a deeper misunderstanding here?

And don't forget that the Leader must be placed adjacent to a Temple, so the only way you could place a Leader into an area (that isn't a Kingdom) that contains two tiles of the same colour, then they must both be red Temple tiles.
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Tim Schmitt
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xris wrote:
the only way you could place a Leader into an area (that isn't a Kingdom) that contains two tiles of the same colour, then they must both be red Temple tiles.
Not strictly true. There could be a many-tiled area with an unfilled space in the middle; only one tile next to that space needs to be a temple in order to place a leader there. Two or three adjacent tiles could be of another color.

(But this is getting pretty far away from the OP's question.)
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David Gibbs
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xris wrote:
And don't forget that the Leader must be placed adjacent to a Temple, so the only way you could place a Leader into an area (that isn't a Kingdom) that contains two tiles of the same colour, then they must both be red Temple tiles.
This is in no way true. And, even, after a reasonably devastating external-conflict (war in the new terminology, I think) could quite easily happen.

 
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Chris Lawson
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dagibbs wrote:
xris wrote:
And don't forget that the Leader must be placed adjacent to a Temple, so the only way you could place a Leader into an area (that isn't a Kingdom) that contains two tiles of the same colour, then they must both be red Temple tiles.
This is in no way true. And, even, after a reasonably devastating external-conflict (war in the new terminology, I think) could quite easily happen.
How is this not true? When you place a Leader on the board, it must be placed adjacent to at least one Temple.

My reply above was in regard to a specific situation.
Hajjir2 wrote:
If you have a kingdom with 2 of the same color tiles and there is currently no leaders in the kingdom and then place a leader there is it one point or two?
In this situation, if you were going to place a Leader such that it was going to be adjacent to a single area which consisted of only two tiles (of the same colour), then for it to be a legal move then those two tiles would have to be red Temples. There was no mention of the newly placed Leader being adjacent to more than one tile.
 
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David Gibbs
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xris wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
xris wrote:
And don't forget that the Leader must be placed adjacent to a Temple, so the only way you could place a Leader into an area (that isn't a Kingdom) that contains two tiles of the same colour, then they must both be red Temple tiles.
This is in no way true. And, even, after a reasonably devastating external-conflict (war in the new terminology, I think) could quite easily happen.
How is this not true? When you place a Leader on the board, it must be placed adjacent to at least one Temple.

My reply above was in regard to a specific situation.
Hajjir2 wrote:
If you have a kingdom with 2 of the same color tiles and there is currently no leaders in the kingdom and then place a leader there is it one point or two?
In this situation, if you were going to place a Leader such that it was going to be adjacent to a single area which consisted of only two tiles (of the same colour), then for it to be a legal move then those two tiles would have to be red Temples. There was no mention of the newly placed Leader being adjacent to more than one tile.
Nowhere in the original specification, nor in your restatement, did it say that the kingdom (corrected to area, since it can't be a kingdom with no leaders) only had two tiles. It could easily have one red tile, 2 green tiles, and one black tile. That would be an area with two tiles of the same color, and no leader.

 
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Chris Lawson
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dagibbs wrote:
xris wrote:
dagibbs wrote:
xris wrote:
And don't forget that the Leader must be placed adjacent to a Temple, so the only way you could place a Leader into an area (that isn't a Kingdom) that contains two tiles of the same colour, then they must both be red Temple tiles.
This is in no way true. And, even, after a reasonably devastating external-conflict (war in the new terminology, I think) could quite easily happen.
How is this not true? When you place a Leader on the board, it must be placed adjacent to at least one Temple.

My reply above was in regard to a specific situation.
Hajjir2 wrote:
If you have a kingdom with 2 of the same color tiles and there is currently no leaders in the kingdom and then place a leader there is it one point or two?
In this situation, if you were going to place a Leader such that it was going to be adjacent to a single area which consisted of only two tiles (of the same colour), then for it to be a legal move then those two tiles would have to be red Temples. There was no mention of the newly placed Leader being adjacent to more than one tile.
Nowhere in the original specification, nor in your restatement, did it say that the kingdom (corrected to area, since it can't be a kingdom with no leaders) only had two tiles. It could easily have one red tile, 2 green tiles, and one black tile. That would be an area with two tiles of the same color, and no leader.
Riiight. So if we are being pedantic, please explain to me how my statement of "the Leader must be placed adjacent to a Temple" is "no way true".

Also explain to me that if the area did only contain two tiles (along with a myriad of other possibilities), then why was my statement "no way true" either?

BTW, they are both rhetorical questions.
 
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David Gibbs
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xris wrote:

Riiight. So if we are being pedantic, please explain to me how my statement of "the Leader must be placed adjacent to a Temple" is "no way true".

Also explain to me that if the area did only contain two tiles (along with a myriad of other possibilities), then why was my statement "no way true" either?

BTW, they are both rhetorical questions.
We are discussing the exact meaning and results of the rules of a game, being pedantic is correct here. Being pedantic is, in fact, the point.

xris wrote:

And don't forget that the Leader must be placed adjacent to a Temple, so the only way you could place a Leader into an area (that isn't a Kingdom) that contains two tiles of the same colour, then they must both be red Temple tiles.
And, ok, "no way true" might have been a bit strong. How about, instead, your conclusion (must both be red) is completely incorrect.

Also, I recognize your rhetorical attempt to close the conversation in your favor, and choose to ignore it as the rhetoric it is.
 
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David Gibbs
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Also, if you're at all familiar with pedants, you should know by now that we excel at answering rhetorical questions. :)
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Chris Lawson
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dagibbs wrote:
xris wrote:
And don't forget that the Leader must be placed adjacent to a Temple
This is in no way true.
Again, for the third time. Please explain to me how this statement is "no way true". After all, this is a rules forum and I'm wondering how your assertion helps this discussion.

dagibbs wrote:
xris wrote:
Also explain to me that if the area did only contain two tiles (along with a myriad of other possibilities), then why was my statement "no way true" either?
And, ok, "no way true" might have been a bit strong. How about, instead, your conclusion (must both be red) is completely incorrect.
I gave you one example where they must both be red so how is this situation "completely incorrect". After all, this is a rules forum and I'm wondering how your assertion helps this discussion.

Let me explain in case you didn't understand. If you place a leader so it is adjacent to one (and only one) area and that area consists of exactly two tiles, then those two tiles must be red Temple tiles.
 
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Caleb
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xris wrote:
[q="dagibbs"]

Let me explain in case you didn't understand. If you place a leader so it is adjacent to one (and only one) area and that area consists of exactly two tiles, then those two tiles must be red Temple tiles.
This doesn't seem right to me. 2 red tiles touching only on their corners don't make 1 area. In order for 2 tiles to border the same space and both be part of the same area, there need to be at least 3 tiles to make an L shape. But only 1 of those tiles has to be red (actually, none of them HAS to be red, but as long as there are no red, you couldn't place a leader there).
 
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Chris Lawson
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cannoneer wrote:
xris wrote:
Let me explain in case you didn't understand. If you place a leader so it is adjacent to one (and only one) area and that area consists of exactly two tiles, then those two tiles must be red Temple tiles.
This doesn't seem right to me. 2 red tiles touching only on their corners don't make 1 area. In order for 2 tiles to border the same space and both be part of the same area, there need to be at least 3 tiles to make an L shape. But only 1 of those tiles has to be red (actually, none of them HAS to be red, but as long as there are no red, you couldn't place a leader there).
I'm not sure what is in your mind's eye but there is only one possible configuration of one area that consists of two tiles and that is when they are orthogonally adjacent to each other.

Two isolated tiles touching diagonally would not make one area, so I'm not including that configuration. I'm talking about then there is one area that consists of two tiles, a Leader is then placed adjacent to that one area. And by "adjacent", I mean orthogonally adjacent as the rules only recognise orthogonal adjacency.
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Caleb
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xris wrote:
cannoneer wrote:
xris wrote:
Let me explain in case you didn't understand. If you place a leader so it is adjacent to one (and only one) area and that area consists of exactly two tiles, then those two tiles must be red Temple tiles.
This doesn't seem right to me. 2 red tiles touching only on their corners don't make 1 area. In order for 2 tiles to border the same space and both be part of the same area, there need to be at least 3 tiles to make an L shape. But only 1 of those tiles has to be red (actually, none of them HAS to be red, but as long as there are no red, you couldn't place a leader there).
I'm not sure what is in your mind's eye but there is only one possible configuration of one area that consists of two tiles and that is when they are orthogonally adjacent to each other.

Two isolated tiles touching diagonally would not make one area, so I'm not including that configuration. I'm talking about then there is one area that consists of two tiles, a Leader is then placed adjacent to that one area. And by "adjacent", I mean orthogonally adjacent as the rules only recognise orthogonal adjacency.
OK, but you can't place a leader adjacent to both of 2 orthagonally adjacent tiles at the same time - it's either-or. So even in your configuration, if one wanted to place a leader next to those 2 tiles, only 1 of them has to be red (and adjacent to THAT one is where you must place the leader). If you wanted to be able to place a leader adjacent to EITHER of those 2 tiles, then yeah, they'd both have to be red. But It's always true that you must place a leader next to a red tile, this isn't really much of a special case.
 
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Chris Lawson
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cannoneer wrote:
xris wrote:
cannoneer wrote:
xris wrote:
Let me explain in case you didn't understand. If you place a leader so it is adjacent to one (and only one) area and that area consists of exactly two tiles, then those two tiles must be red Temple tiles.
This doesn't seem right to me. 2 red tiles touching only on their corners don't make 1 area. In order for 2 tiles to border the same space and both be part of the same area, there need to be at least 3 tiles to make an L shape. But only 1 of those tiles has to be red (actually, none of them HAS to be red, but as long as there are no red, you couldn't place a leader there).
I'm not sure what is in your mind's eye but there is only one possible configuration of one area that consists of two tiles and that is when they are orthogonally adjacent to each other.

Two isolated tiles touching diagonally would not make one area, so I'm not including that configuration. I'm talking about then there is one area that consists of two tiles, a Leader is then placed adjacent to that one area. And by "adjacent", I mean orthogonally adjacent as the rules only recognise orthogonal adjacency.
OK, but you can't place a leader adjacent to both of 2 orthagonally adjacent tiles at the same time - it's either-or. So even in your configuration, if one wanted to place a leader next to those 2 tiles, only 1 of them has to be red (and adjacent to THAT one is where you must place the leader). If you wanted to be able to place a leader adjacent to EITHER of those 2 tiles, then yeah, they'd both have to be red. But It's always true that you must place a leader next to a red tile, this isn't really much of a special case.
Ah, I see your confusion.

Read what I said.
"If you place a leader so it is adjacent to one (and only one) area and that area consists of exactly two tiles, then those two tiles must be red Temple tiles."

I am placing a leader so it is adjacent to one area.

That area consists of two tiles.

That doesn't mean that I am placing the leader adjacent to two tiles. I am placing the leader so it is adjacent to the area (i.e. to one of the two tiles that make up this area).
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Caleb
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xris wrote:
cannoneer wrote:
xris wrote:
cannoneer wrote:
xris wrote:
Let me explain in case you didn't understand. If you place a leader so it is adjacent to one (and only one) area and that area consists of exactly two tiles, then those two tiles must be red Temple tiles.
This doesn't seem right to me. 2 red tiles touching only on their corners don't make 1 area. In order for 2 tiles to border the same space and both be part of the same area, there need to be at least 3 tiles to make an L shape. But only 1 of those tiles has to be red (actually, none of them HAS to be red, but as long as there are no red, you couldn't place a leader there).
I'm not sure what is in your mind's eye but there is only one possible configuration of one area that consists of two tiles and that is when they are orthogonally adjacent to each other.

Two isolated tiles touching diagonally would not make one area, so I'm not including that configuration. I'm talking about then there is one area that consists of two tiles, a Leader is then placed adjacent to that one area. And by "adjacent", I mean orthogonally adjacent as the rules only recognise orthogonal adjacency.
OK, but you can't place a leader adjacent to both of 2 orthagonally adjacent tiles at the same time - it's either-or. So even in your configuration, if one wanted to place a leader next to those 2 tiles, only 1 of them has to be red (and adjacent to THAT one is where you must place the leader). If you wanted to be able to place a leader adjacent to EITHER of those 2 tiles, then yeah, they'd both have to be red. But It's always true that you must place a leader next to a red tile, this isn't really much of a special case.
Ah, I see your confusion.

Read what I said.
"If you place a leader so it is adjacent to one (and only one) area and that area consists of exactly two tiles, then those two tiles must be red Temple tiles."

I am placing a leader so it is adjacent to one area.

That area consists of two tiles.

That doesn't mean that I am placing the leader adjacent to two tiles. I am placing the leader so it is adjacent to the area (i.e. to one of the two tiles that make up this area).
Isn't that the same thing as saying, "I want to place a leader next to any of these n tiles. Therefore, all n tiles must be red to allow this." It's certainly true; not sure how useful it is.
 
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Chris Lawson
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cannoneer wrote:
Isn't that the same thing as saying, "I want to place a leader next to any of these n tiles. Therefore, all n tiles must be red to allow this." It's certainly true; not sure how useful it is.
Sigh. this is going round in circles now.

How about this area that consists of 7 tiles.
██████
██████
██████
In this configuration it is possible to place the Leader orthogonally adjacent to any of these seven tiles (including placing it next to the black tile) but not all of them have to be red.

But I'm not talking about placing a Leader next to specific tiles, I'm talking about placing a Leader into an area. In particular I was referring to a very specific situation where the area had only two tiles and they happened to be the same colour. I just mentioned that to be able to place the Leader anywhere into this area then both tiles would have to be red. One of the reasons I said that was just as a gentle reminder to the OP that when you place a Leader then at least one adjacent tile must be red. Well, since I said "And don't forget that the Leader must be placed adjacent to a Temple", it might not have been such a gentle reminder
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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Wow, a whole bunch of wasted effort over one person who assumes that the statement that the area contains two tiles of the same colour means only those two, and one person who assumes not only those two.

But you also might want to look at who is posting. Then take a look at the game credits. And the FAQ list (though the FFG rules have been rewritten since then).
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