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Subject: Dreams Change rss

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Dave Mendiola
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Dreams isn't used very much in most of the games I play. While the threat of Dreams can certainly be scary, it doesn't really feel as overpowered as some of the other abilities in the game.

Dreams (Action: Cost 3):
Choose an area with enemy Acolyte Cultists. Your enemy must eliminate an Acolyte Cultist (chosen by victim) and replace it with one of yours.IF Cthulhu is adjacent to the area, reduce the cost to 2

The reasoning behind this is as follows.

1. Cthulhu's proximity is what triggers this horrifying effect. While the effects were felt worldwide, those closest were most affected.

2. This gives Cthulhu the ability to smash into a location, get units pained out, and use those spread apart monsters to take over locations.

3. It gives a reason why you won't necessarily have Cthulhu take the hit for your Faction ability and why a 2 Starspawn play might be even more effective.
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David Etherton
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Interesting! There were some other discussions on these boards where IIRC Sandy said that the ideal cost for Dreams was 2.5 power -- this seems like an interesting compromise.

-Dave
 
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Mike Malley
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That seems pretty slick. If someone had told me that was the actual rule, I would've believed them.
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Mike Beiter
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Microbadge: Cthulhu Wars fanMicrobadge: Game ExplainerMicrobadge: Nightfall fanMicrobadge: I talk trash during gamesMicrobadge: I play with red!
Well since they are sending out errata spell books with the new campaign , maybe this could be added?

I really like this little tweak.
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Arturo Cavari
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I like this one as well, the threat of Dreams is just not enough as it stands now.
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PJ Cunningham
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I've found that the threat of using Dreams does force enemies to account for it in their plans. So even at 0 cost its effective.

That said, I like this tweak!
 
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Arthur Petersen
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Ive seen dreams used plenty in certain games - its just like ghroth and dread curse in my view. Not every game has it, but when you have that extra power, its perfect
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Dave Mendiola
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existoid wrote:
I've seen dreams used plenty in certain games - its just like ghroth and dread curse in my view. Not every game has it, but when you have that extra power, its perfect
I've used it a lot during some games as well, but I've found it isn't used as often as I would like. The counter play is pretty easy to initiate and while it does "limit" their expansion, that limitation doesn't have a huge effect, since areas need to be defended anyway.

As an aside, tell Sandy I have one viewing down and will have a the second two done soon. devil
 
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David Andersson
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I'm not against that change assuming that it's balanced, but I also haven't had any problem with Dreams as it stands now. A successful Dreams really is a big deal. I've seen it used by some people and they weave it into their play style effortlessly.
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Arthur Petersen
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Afrofrycook wrote:
existoid wrote:
I've seen dreams used plenty in certain games - its just like ghroth and dread curse in my view. Not every game has it, but when you have that extra power, its perfect
I've used it a lot during some games as well, but I've found it isn't used as often as I would like. The counter play is pretty easy to initiate and while it does "limit" their expansion, that limitation doesn't have a huge effect, since areas need to be defended anyway.

As an aside, tell Sandy I have one viewing down and will have a the second two done soon. devil
I think that for me, the fact that not every spellbook of every faction is seen in every game isn't a problem, it's just how CW works. Dreams is going to be used less, and that's just how it is.

But also, I once observed a game (at a convention) in which Cthulhu had 9 power when almost everyone else was out, and there also happened to be gates in areas without any other cultists. He awesomely just straight up got those 3 gates via Dreams three times, I think two were from the same player, and then a 3rd from someone else. It was awesome.

Honestly, Had I been playing, I would have submerged Cthulhu and done other stuff. I may have used Dreams once, but I would have felt that 9 power is better spent doing something else. However, that doesn't mean I would have been right. The next round, he did end up devolving most of those 3 to protect them, but that really wasn't a loss, since he got those 3 doom and 6 extra Power. It was fantastic.

It reminds me of when Grant killed 17 enemy cultist with Ghroth during a single game.

And I've seen Dread Curse annihilate enemies as well.

I think all of these types of things only happen every 10 games or so, but when they do, they're awesomely fun.
 
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Lawrence VH
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I played CW this weekend with my wife and brother.
I was Cthulhu, my wife was the Black Goat and my brother the Crawling Chaos.

I was winning the game, when my brother and me finished our turn, with my wife having 9 power left. She grothed all our cultists out of the game and controlled no less than 7 gates.
In the end, she won...

One of the best CW games we played until now.
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Philip Dale
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Now that Sandy is considering reducing the cost of Dreams to 2, I'm thinking that maybe it should be that Dreams costs 2 normally, but only 1 if Cthulhu is in an adjacent space, similar to how the original poster suggests.
 
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Dave Mendiola
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PhilyFooFighter wrote:
Now that Sandy is considering reducing the cost of Dreams to 2, I'm thinking that maybe it should be that Dreams costs 2 normally, but only 1 if Cthulhu is in an adjacent space, similar to how the original poster suggests.
That is not a good idea.

Honestly, I think Dreams should still be 3, but refund after it replaces a unit. This way High Priests can't be used to snipe a gate. Why is that an issue? Because it means everyone else has to save their High Priests solely to protect against Dreams. That sounds terrible to me.
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Bernard Gourion
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Afrofrycook wrote:
PhilyFooFighter wrote:
Now that Sandy is considering reducing the cost of Dreams to 2, I'm thinking that maybe it should be that Dreams costs 2 normally, but only 1 if Cthulhu is in an adjacent space, similar to how the original poster suggests.
That is not a good idea.

Honestly, I think Dreams should still be 3, but refund after it replaces a unit. This way High Priests can't be used to snipe a gate. Why is that an issue? Because it means everyone else has to save their High Priests solely to protect against Dreams. That sounds terrible to me.
Hmmm... At 3, Dreams was clearly the worst spellbook of the Cthulhu Faction, while now it's a good one. And about the HP that you should keep to protect yourself against Dreams. Hey, honestly, HP are meant to be a PP reserve on foot to protect yourself - but not only - against tricky plays like Dreams or other things... That's partly what the HP are designed for, isn't it ?
 
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Dave Mendiola
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bengougou75 wrote:
Hmmm... At 3, Dreams was clearly the worst spellbook of the Cthulhu Faction, while now it's a good one.
To clarify, I meant that it should refund 1 after it is used. That or it costs 3 against someone with no power. So the cost would still be 2, it just couldn't be combined with High Priests to snipe a gate.


bengougou75 wrote:
And about the HP that you should keep to protect yourself against Dreams. Hey, honestly, HP are meant to be a PP reserve on foot to protect yourself - but not only - against tricky plays like Dreams or other things... That's partly what the HP are designed for, isn't it ?
The point of High Priests is to provide you some flexibility. You recruit one for 3, and then you have an emergency stash of 2 power to do with as you please.

Now that Dreams costs 2, you can't spend them on your plans. They should only be used to counter Dreams if it is used. Otherwise, you're risking your gate being sniped. This prevents the flexible use of the expansion rather than support it.

Outside of High Priests, I think the change is fine. With it though, it becomes an issue.
 
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Bernard Gourion
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Afrofrycook wrote:
bengougou75 wrote:
Hmmm... At 3, Dreams was clearly the worst spellbook of the Cthulhu Faction, while now it's a good one.
To clarify, I meant that it should refund 1 after it is used. That or it costs 3 against someone with no power. So the cost would still be 2, it just couldn't be combined with High Priests to snipe a gate.


bengougou75 wrote:
And about the HP that you should keep to protect yourself against Dreams. Hey, honestly, HP are meant to be a PP reserve on foot to protect yourself - but not only - against tricky plays like Dreams or other things... That's partly what the HP are designed for, isn't it ?
The point of High Priests is to provide you some flexibility. You recruit one for 3, and then you have an emergency stash of 2 power to do with as you please.

Now that Dreams costs 2, you can't spend them on your plans. They should only be used to counter Dreams if it is used. Otherwise, you're risking your gate being sniped. This prevents the flexible use of the expansion rather than support it.

Outside of High Priests, I think the change is fine. With it though, it becomes an issue.
the use of Dreams is contextual: if you are the lagger, your probability of being 'dreamed' is lower. And also this implies Cthulhu has PPs after you have none, or it needs a HP snipe which assumes Cthulhu has one at this moment.
In this latter case, let's do the math : sac an HP means :
- you lose 3 (1 PP due to the fact the HP won't bring 1 PP at the next gather phase + 2 for the Dreams cost) ;
- to gain 3 PPs (2 for the gate and 1 for the additionnal cultist).
So in terms of PP, it's neutral. In terms of Doom, you gain 1 but you gain hostility...

i don't see all that so unbalancing...

 
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Adam Starks
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Your relative cost is off: it's not neutral, it's a swing of 3 Power, because your opponent is down 3. Similarly, it's a swing of 2 Doom: +1 for you, -1 for your opponent.

Dave's correct here. One of the things I like to do with High Priests is to put them with an Acolyte, and when everyone is out of power, pop the High Priest, step on the gate with the Acolyte, and do something (move + battle, move + capture, dread curse, etc). Doing this can now be severely punished via Dreams, which means you need to have 2 Acolytes with your High Priest, which means the High Priest alone isn't doing much to help you hold gates.

The other side of this is how many other Acolytes you have available, beyond whatever is with the High Priest. When Dreams cost 3, you had 5 others to play with. This let you either control 2 more gates safely (2 + 3 Acolytes), or 3 more gates riskily (2 + 2 + 1 Acolyte, the last one presumably with your GOO). Now you only have 4 Acolytes leftover, so the only option that really makes sense is 2 gates (2 + 2), since (2 + 1 + 1) is so weak.

More broadly, leaving High Priests out, you could have a gate with 1 Acolyte as long as you had a Monster or GOO and didn't run out of Power before Cthulhu could afford Dreams. Now that's no longer the case: if Cthulhu has a High Priest, then no 1-Acolyte gate is safe, even if you manage your power really well and run out long after Cthulhu.
 
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Bernard Gourion
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AdamStarks wrote:
Your relative cost is off: it's not neutral, it's a swing of 3 Power, because your opponent is down 3. Similarly, it's a swing of 2 Doom: +1 for you, -1 for your opponent.

Dave's correct here. One of the things I like to do with High Priests is to put them with an Acolyte, and when everyone is out of power, pop the High Priest, step on the gate with the Acolyte, and do something (move + battle, move + capture, dread curse, etc). Doing this can now be severely punished via Dreams, which means you need to have 2 Acolytes with your High Priest, which means the High Priest alone isn't doing much to help you hold gates.

The other side of this is how many other Acolytes you have available, beyond whatever is with the High Priest. When Dreams cost 3, you had 5 others to play with. This let you either control 2 more gates safely (2 + 3 Acolytes), or 3 more gates riskily (2 + 2 + 1 Acolyte, the last one presumably with your GOO). Now you only have 4 Acolytes leftover, so the only option that really makes sense is 2 gates (2 + 2), since (2 + 1 + 1) is so weak.

More broadly, leaving High Priests out, you could have a gate with 1 Acolyte as long as you had a Monster or GOO and didn't run out of Power before Cthulhu could afford Dreams. Now that's no longer the case: if Cthulhu has a High Priest, then no 1-Acolyte gate is safe, even if you manage your power really well and run out long after Cthulhu.
Again don't exclude meta-gaming from your analysis: if you are a lagger, you are less prone to be dreamed. And your swing calculus is less significant than it seems because you are not alone to face the threat of being dreamed...
And note also it dépends on who will be first on the next turn: If GC plays before you, he has a chance to keep the 'dreamed' gate, whereas playng after you is risky if your gate is protected by a monster (meaning instant capture). This enhances the question of the order of play and that is a good thing (usually i don't care a lot for this except when the turn will be one potentially rich in rituals...).
 
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Dave Mendiola
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bengougou75 wrote:
Again don't exclude meta-gaming from your analysis: if you are a lagger, you are less prone to be dreamed. And your swing calculus is less significant than it seems because you are not alone to face the threat of being dreamed...
The swing calculus doesn't change the person affected. Additionally, you're not taking into account that only certain factions might be vulnerable to it. It doesn't matter if someone else is in the lead if they're not a viable target (for instance, they're holding their High Priest). If I don't have my High Priest out, I'm suddenly vulnerable to being sniped.

bengougou75 wrote:
And note also it dépends on who will be first on the next turn: If GC plays before you, he has a chance to keep the 'dreamed' gate, whereas playng after you is risky if your gate is protected by a monster (meaning instant capture). This enhances the question of the order of play and that is a good thing (usually i don't care a lot for this except when the turn will be one potentially rich in rituals...).
That isn't really relevant. Even if he loses the gate next round, 2 power for 3 power and 1 Doom (potentially 2 if ritualing) is always worth it.
 
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Bernard Gourion
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Afrofrycook wrote:

That isn't really relevant. Even if he loses the gate next round, 2 power for 3 power and 1 Doom (potentially 2 if ritualing) is always worth it.

if GC sacks his HP, it's 3 PP for 3PPs not 2 for 3 as GC loses the PP the dead HP should have bring him.
 
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Dave Mendiola
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bengougou75 wrote:
Afrofrycook wrote:

That isn't really relevant. Even if he loses the gate next round, 2 power for 3 power and 1 Doom (potentially 2 if ritualing) is always worth it.

if GC sacks his HP, it's 3 PP for 3PPs not 2 for 3 as GC loses the PP the dead HP should have bring him.
It would depend on if the cultist is coming from the pool or from Devolve.
 
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Melle de Jong
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I made these print n play spellbooks to use until OS3 is delivered:

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Melle de Jong
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The Spellbooks I created are based on the following updates:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1816687860/cthulhu-wars...

Sandy’s Design Corner: Balancing Great Cthulhu

I’ve spent a lot of my adult life balancing games. One of the reasons that Cthulhu Wars took so long to initially develop is because I focused so much and so long on getting it just right. Despite this, even the best game balancer can occasionally miss something.

Cthulhu Wars has been around long enough that we have had to make changes based on long term player feedback. Most players agree that the original version of Windwalker is hard for players to handle at least if they hadn’t encountered him before, so we changed the way Hibernate worked. In the process we were able to make Windwalker more interesting, with more meaningful choices. It also became clear that some players took too long to fully understand Black Goat’s possibilities, so we slightly beefed up her Red Sign and Ghroth spellbooks, to make them easier to use, and again this gave her more choices. (I like giving players more choices.)

The Great Cthulhu has not generally been considered the strongest faction. Cthulhu is always a contender, and is probably the most-common 2nd place player. He rarely comes in dead last (unlike, say, Opener, who is likeliest to be either first player or last player – rarely Mr. In-Between). That said, among the most skilled players, Cthulhu is not as highly regarded as I would like, particular given his eponymous nature.

Therefore, I am making a balance change to Cthulhu, at least partially in honor of the new Dire Cthulhu sculpt. This consists of the following two spellbook changes:

1) It no longer costs Power to Emerge after a Submerge.

2) Dreams now costs 2 Power instead of 3.

EFFECTS OF THESE CHANGES

SUBMERGE – really all this means is that Submerge is now a cheaper way to travel. It was always useful to strike a long distance, but it was both time-consuming and sometimes expensive. Since you can only Submerge in an Ocean, you still may have to pay a Movement premium to recover if you Emerge to beach your whole army for your land war in Asia. But at least you got your troops there in a less costly manner. In addition, this makes it slightly likelier that you’ll be able to Submerge, Emerge, and then still have 1 Power left to Battle. Or, in the worst-case scenario, you’ll have 1 Power to slither one more unit back into the sea before you Submerge again.

DREAMS – way back in the day when I was first designing Cthulhu, there was a lot of debate over whether Dreams should cost 2 or 3 Power. In the end, we decided on 3 Power, because an adept user of Dreams can really be very threatening with it.

However, there were two drawbacks to the Power 3 cost that only became clear over time. First, new players often weren’t able to see the vision of Dreams, so to speak. It looked to them like a really expensive way to place a cultist on the map, instead of a way to steal a gate at a comparatively low cost. Second, experienced enemies, who DID understand how Dreams worked, were generally able to take steps to keep it from happening too often.

As a result I have decided that knocking Dreams down to 2 points will be beneficial to the game. Not only will new players have less “sticker shock” when considering it, but experienced players will have even more motivation to be concerned with its effects. And of course it becomes an even more lethal arrow in Cthulhu’s quiver.

WHAT IF I DON’T WANT THESE CHANGES?

Don’t use them – the game is just as good as it ever was. Cthulhu will continue to win some of your games, though probably at a slightly lower percentage.

SO HOW DO I GET THESE CHANGES IF I WANT THEM?

We are going to add the changed spellbooks to EVERY stretch goal box. No, it’s not a stretch goal – as backers you don’t need to collectively accumulate a certain amount of money to “earn this”. We’re just putting it in the stretch goal box as a convenience for us.

When you get the new spellbooks, you can toss the old ones away. Or use them as coasters for small shot glasses. Or throw them like shuriken.

Additionally, this print run of the core game will include them (i.e., if you are getting an Acolyte or Great Old One pledge level, you’d actually get two copies of each of these Spellbooks; one in the game, and the other in your stretch goal box).

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1816687860/cthulhu-wars...

HOW DID SANDY ADDRESS THESE BALANCE IDEAS?

I have changed two of the Tcho Tcho spellbooks.

The Tablets of the God spellbook now states that you earn 1 Elder Sign per Gated Area in which you have any high priests. You then lose all your high priests. This means you have to maintain and protect three gates to gain your 3 Elder Signs - no trivial matter for the combat-poor Tcho Tchos. Plus if you are forced into Martyrdom to protect a gate, you'll need to re-recruit him before the Doom phase.

This still lets the Tcho Tchos turtle, a little. But not as much. There is a huge difference between 2 gates & 3 gates, plus the high priests have to be split up, too. It makes the Tcho Tchos far more interactive and forces them into confrontation, which is good.

Enemies who want to meddle with the Tcho Tchos will find it much easier. A gate defended by a cultist, a high priest, and 2 proto-shoggoths is not a tough nut to crack. Remember you don't even have to kill the Tcho Tcho high priest - just get it away from the gate! Every faction has its own approach to this, which I will leave as an exercise for you players!

I have also changed the Hierophants spellbook. Now it states that when this spellbook is first received, EVERY faction with a high priest in the unit pool gets a free high priest. Thereafter, the Tcho Tchos (only) continue to get a free high priest with each subsequent spellbook.

This means that while the Tcho Tchos still start with a slight advantage in a high priest game, this is quickly trumped when the other factions get their free high priest! Also it means that, sometimes, the Tcho Tchos may wish to NOT get Hierophants as their first spellbook, to keep their enemies at bay. After all, the normal Tcho Tcho start is to get a spellbook in the first Doom phase, then take Hierophants. Now if they do this, all the other factions get a high priest too! It's like giving them all 3 Power. Kind of scary.

Both of these changes give the Tcho Tchos more choices, and this makes them more interesting to play and to play against.

HOW DO I GET MY HANDS ON THESE CHANGES?

Well, if you are backing this campaign, we're adding the updated spellbooks to your stretch goal box. It's not a "stretch goal" per se - it's just easier for us to put it there. So you're getting it free.

If you are getting the Tcho Tchos as an add-on, or as part of your Acolyte, Hound of Tindalos, or Great Old One pledge, the updated spellbooks will be inside the expansion, so you'll get two copies of each. Again, this makes things easier for us, and so ultimately for you. Just toss the extra cards (or use them as coasters). In other words, all future copies of the Tcho Tchos will have this included.

Also if you don't have the Tcho Tchos, but happen to obtain the first printing of them later on (but from the first print run of them), you'll already have your replacement cards ready to go!

If you are not backing this campaign, or know a friend who isn't, he can get downloadable pdfs of the new spellbooks from our website. Just print them out and glue them over the old books. Or don't. It's not ours to judge.
 
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