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Subject: Southern Ocean rss

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Poland
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Hello!

After studying the map and the cards, I have some doubts about placement of Southern Ocean. Why not just merge it with South Atlantic?

It seems that it has the lowest strategic importance of all the sea spaces alongside Southeast Pacific. It can only be accessed if one of the sides has an Army in Africa or South America. The latter is probably the least occupied space in the game and for a good reason. Africa is tricky - whoever tries to hold it, will have supply lines that are long and susceptible to attacks, with the exception of UK, but only if they hold Australia.

So why is there a Southern Ocean space anyway? To have an additional space between South Atlantic and Indian Ocean? What's the design idea behind it?

I guess only the designer himself can answer my questions, but I'm really interested in the answer.
 
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Peter Bakija
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Olekman wrote:
So why is there a Southern Ocean space anyway? To have an additional space between South Atlantic and Indian Ocean? What's the design idea behind it?
There is no real reason for it not to be there, and makes the map look better, I guess?

I have played Quarter Master General at this point, like, more than 50 times. I can't think of a single game where a unit was placed in:

-Southern Ocean
-Latin America
-South East Pacific

There just aren't enough pieces and enough incentive to put things there--the US has no need to go there, and if the Japanese are mucking around in that direction, they are going to be totally losing in Asia, and there isn't much to be gained by going there.

That being said, there isn't any good reason to not have those spaces there.
 
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Poland
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bakija wrote:
That being said, there isn't any good reason to not have those spaces there.
Well, one reason would be that playing General Smuts Strengthens Ties to UK to place a Navy in South Atlantic, instead of Southern Ocean, would make some sense. A roundabout way for UK to get into Australia, if both Increased Commonwealth Support and Australia Forms The Directorate of Manpower are buried deep in the deck.

I understand that there are spaces that should never be visited in serious games, but I wonder why Southern Ocean has been made as it is. Wouldn't it be simpler to just made that whole are South Atlantic? I assume there is a reason for its existence. I just don't know what that reason is.
 
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Ian Brody
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Olekman wrote:
Hello!

So why is there a Southern Ocean space anyway? To have an additional space between South Atlantic and Indian Ocean? What's the design idea behind it?
That was the reason, although it is arguably moot. Some of the cards in the earlier playtest versions made more play out of these spaces.

Really, the utterly pointless sea zone is the Southeast Pacific. As one can see from the information boxes on the board, the East Pacific is adjacent to Latin America, which makes the Southeast Pacific pretty pointless. I felt like the map would look weird without this space being named.

In terms of my games and the South Atlantic and Latin America:

Doesn't happen often, but as Italy I have built in the South Atlantic to get my third Navy into play, for Mare Nostrum, and then pleasantly annoyed the crap out of the Americans by sea battling the North Atlantic.

As Japan, I have landed in Latin America on a couple occasions. An army in Latin America can battle the Eastern USA.

In the next expansion, I'm bringing back a card that didn't make the final draft of the base game, builds a US Army in Latin America and a Navy in the South Atlantic.
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Poland
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IanBrody wrote:
That was the reason, although it is arguably moot. Some of the cards in the earlier playtest versions made more play out of these spaces.
Thank you very much for answering!

So it is as I thought, just a buffer space. I still think it would be more interesting if South Atlantic was directly connected to Indian Ocean and Southeast Pacific. Ferrying troops across the world via Cape of Good Hope as UK sounds fun.

IanBrody wrote:
Doesn't happen often, but as Italy I have built in the South Atlantic to get my third Navy into play, for Mare Nostrum, and then pleasantly annoyed the crap out of the Americans by sea battling the North Atlantic.
Just as I thought, albeit I decided not to include that in my post. Italy has a small incentive to make a Navy in South Atlantic, either to harass US supply lanes or to get more points from Mare Nostrum. Still, considering that Italy has only 2 Sea Battle cards, I assume it's rather rare to play it.

IanBrody wrote:
In the next expansion, I'm bringing back a card that didn't make the final draft of the base game, builds a US Army in Latin America and a Navy in the South Atlantic.
There will be another expansion? Fantastic! Where I can get more information on it?
 
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Ian Brody
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Olekman wrote:


There will be another expansion? Fantastic! Where I can get more information on it?
There was another thread, but it's long outdated. I will post more information soon.


I'm juggling my design time between a few projects: the finishing touches on Victory or Death, the Peloponnesian war. There's a playtest PBF here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/20858525
(The board is just a playtest board, not the real board.)

and
QG: Alternate Histories

and
QG: The Great War
 
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Peter Bakija
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Olekman wrote:
Well, one reason would be that playing General Smuts Strengthens Ties to UK to place a Navy in South Atlantic, instead of Southern Ocean, would make some sense. A roundabout way for UK to get into Australia, if both Increased Commonwealth Support and Australia Forms The Directorate of Manpower are buried deep in the deck.
I suppose that is possible, but it is a *really* roundabout way to do that, and uses way more effort and resources than it is likely worth. Especially given that if Increased Commonwealth Support and Directorate of Manpower are buried deep in the deck, Japan is already in Australia :-)

But yeah, I can see a few very corner case situations where one might try something like this.
 
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Peter Bakija
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IanBrody wrote:
As Japan, I have landed in Latin America on a couple occasions. An army in Latin America can battle the Eastern USA.
Gadzooks. How do the Japanese get an army in Latin America?

Army Australia>Fleet Indian Ocean>(Italians in Africa?)>Fleet Southern Ocean>Army Latin America?

Going the Eastern direction seems impossible--you can go Australia, South Pacific, New Zealand, East Pacific, but then how do you get a fleet in Southeast Pacific? ...Unless the Italians have *already* taken Latin America! That's the ticket!
 
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Ian Brody
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The Eastern Pacific is adjacent to Latin America. Both times Japan's been there has been courtesy of SNLF - build a Navy in the East Pacific, SNLF into Latin America.
 
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Dave Martin
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bakija wrote:
IanBrody wrote:
As Japan, I have landed in Latin America on a couple occasions. An army in Latin America can battle the Eastern USA.
Gadzooks. How do the Japanese get an army in Latin America?

Army Australia>Fleet Indian Ocean>(Italians in Africa?)>Fleet Southern Ocean>Army Latin America?

Going the Eastern direction seems impossible--you can go Australia, South Pacific, New Zealand, East Pacific, but then how do you get a fleet in Southeast Pacific? ...Unless the Italians have *already* taken Latin America! That's the ticket!
We've had a Japanese army in Latin America 3 or 4 times, out of about 100 plays. Sometimes that seems like a more effective route (and then battle Eastern US) than going through Western US first.

I think about 3 times it was through East Pacific, but I think that once it was from Australia - so, yes, through the Southern Ocean.

My son seems to find a way to succeed at things in this game that others simply deem as impossible.
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Dave Martin
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bakija wrote:
Going the Eastern direction seems impossible--you can go Australia, South Pacific, New Zealand, East Pacific, but then how do you get a fleet in Southeast Pacific? ...
North Pacific, then Hawaii and then East Pacific is a much more common way to quickly put the US on the defensive. With the right cards in play, it's only 2 moves to do the above plus land in Latin America or battle Western US.

In fact, I think there's a way to do it in one move, with all the right cards.
 
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Peter Bakija
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IanBrody wrote:
The Eastern Pacific is adjacent to Latin America. Both times Japan's been there has been courtesy of SNLF - build a Navy in the East Pacific, SNLF into Latin America.
Ah, ok. Weird. I never noticed that.
 
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Poland
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Dave Martin wrote:
bakija wrote:
Going the Eastern direction seems impossible--you can go Australia, South Pacific, New Zealand, East Pacific, but then how do you get a fleet in Southeast Pacific? ...
North Pacific, then Hawaii and then East Pacific is a much more common way to quickly put the US on the defensive. With the right cards in play, it's only 2 moves to do the above plus land in Latin America or battle Western US.

In fact, I think there's a way to do it in one move, with all the right cards.
You can do it in 4 turns.
1. Build a Navy in Sea of Japan.
2. Put "Truk" face-down on the table.
3. Put "Special Landing Forces" faced-down on the table.
4. Activate "Truk", build a Navy into North Pacific, activate "Special Landing Forces" and build up to two Armies in Pacific Northwest, Hawaii and/or Vladivostok.

You have to have those two Response cards to pull it off, but it can be quite worth it, especially if you have "Forward Bases" too.
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Dave Martin
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Olekman wrote:
Dave Martin wrote:
bakija wrote:
Going the Eastern direction seems impossible--you can go Australia, South Pacific, New Zealand, East Pacific, but then how do you get a fleet in Southeast Pacific? ...
North Pacific, then Hawaii and then East Pacific is a much more common way to quickly put the US on the defensive. With the right cards in play, it's only 2 moves to do the above plus land in Latin America or battle Western US.

In fact, I think there's a way to do it in one move, with all the right cards.
You can do it in 4 turns.
1. Build a Navy in Sea of Japan.
2. Put "Truk" face-down on the table.
3. Put "Special Landing Forces" faced-down on the table.
4. Activate "Truk", build a Navy into North Pacific, activate "Special Landing Forces" and build up to two Armies in Pacific Northwest, Hawaii and/or Vladivostok.

You have to have those two Response cards to pull it off, but it can be quite worth it, especially if you have "Forward Bases" too.
Right, 4 turns from the beginning to get to North Pacific/Hawaii/Pacific Northwest.

What I meant was 1 turn, mid-game, to go from a navy in Sea of Japan (and likely some other Asian holdings) to landing in Latin America or battling Western US or even Eastern US.

As you mentioned, you would need to have Truk and SNLF face down on the table. Don't have the game with me right now, but there are 2 or 3 other cards needed, and I'm not sure if they're basic game or expnsion, and whether they're response cards or bolster cards.

OK, so activate Truk, build navy in North Pacific, activate card or cards that effectively allow you to build another navy when building a navy to build navy in East Pacific, SNLF to build armies in Latin America and Hawaii, deploy or marshal air force to Latin America, play bolster card that battles adjacent to air force (with this method they can battle East US).

I think that there may also be a card that allows you to battle adjacent to a newly built navy, but maybe that's a sea battle only. And, in order to maintain supply lines after this, they may need an army in Iwo Jima before they do this. Sorry, I don't have the game with me and I'm forgetting specific cards, but the point is that Japan can (particularly with the expansion) make a sudden move towards the US. In order to do so, however, they are likely giving up potential points in Asia.
 
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