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Subject: random questions (base set and expansions) rss

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Lance Ford
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Ok, these are just a few questions that came up as I was sorting the ability cards and Search cards...

Can a Scamp use the Dodge ability on water?

Heart of Glorm:
Do you still have to perform a recover action to remove mind worm? Is it just that you can only use the recover action after a wound is received, or is the act of receiving a wound what makes you recover?

Can Nere’s Natural Healing remove a poison wound?

Downwood Tales:
Anklet of the Frog: do you only discard it if you are wearing it when wounded by a froglodyte? Or do you even have to discard it if it is in your pack when a froglodyte wounds you?

Some of these are probably just a judgement call / house ruling, but I was curious what others thought.
 
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Greg
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1. This is certainly a tricky one. But I believe that yes, a Scamp can use Dodge while on a water space, however, normal rules would apply and he would have to end his move when entering a new water space. So if a Scamp was moving from water to water with Dodge, it would only be 1 space and they wouldn't get the full "up to 2 spaces". Also, since this isn't his normal movement, they would not be able to use Dodge to climb out of water to a non-water space.

2. No. You don't need to use a Recover action for any Charmed effects. The normal way of being charmed makes the mouse act like a minion for a turn and possibly attack another mouse, and then remove the charmed markers at the end of its turn. For Mind Worm, the charm effects of acting like a minion for that mouse lasts until that mouse takes a wound. So it's worse because it isn't auto removed at the end of its next turn.

3. No. Poison wounds are distinct and separate from wound markers. They are referred to as poison wound markers. Her ability allows her to remove a wound marker, so that's a normal wound. Page 17 of S&R rulebook under Poisoned shows the distinction. Also, the Cure spell for the Healer specifies removing poison wound markers.

4. Good question. I believe the intent was for it to be discarded after taking a wound from a froglodyte, if the Anklet of the Frog was equipped. Perhaps the card could have been perfectly clear in saying, "...mouse with this anklet equipped..." But, two things make me rule that it has to be equipped to have to be discarded. First, for thematic reasons, the froglodyte wouldn't see it in the mouse's pack to take it away after wounding the mouse. Second, going by the rules for when a mouse is captured, items in the backpack aren't discarded.
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Lance Ford
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Hahma wrote:
1. This is certainly a tricky one. But I believe that yes, a Scamp can use Dodge while on a water space, however, normal rules would apply and he would have to end his move when entering a new water space. So if a Scamp was moving from water to water with Dodge, it would only be 1 space and they wouldn't get the full "up to 2 spaces". Also, since this isn't his normal movement, they would not be able to use Dodge to climb out of water to a non-water space.

I see what you are saying about still adhering to movement rules in water. Unlike the Shifting Cloak, which would move you due to the magic in the cloak.. Dodge is pretty much straight up mobility, representing Filch or Ditty being quick on their feet. So it makes sense that they could use it, but like you said, only one space and the move ends.
However, I don't see why it couldn't be used to get out of the water also... it would just require rolling a * to exit the water successfully, and once again, it would just be the one space since leaving water ends your move. We can use Scurry to get out of water, so why not Dodge?

Hahma wrote:
2. No. You don't need to use a Recover action for any Charmed effects. The normal way of being charmed makes the mouse act like a minion for a turn and possibly attack another mouse, and then remove the charmed markers at the end of its turn. For Mind Worm, the charm effects of acting like a minion for that mouse lasts until that mouse takes a wound. So it's worse because it isn't auto removed at the end of its next turn.

Ah, gotcha... charmed wears off, or is smacked off by your fellow mice if it's a mind worm.

Hahma wrote:
3. No. Poison wounds are distinct and separate from wound markers. They are referred to as poison wound markers. Her ability allows her to remove a wound marker, so that's a normal wound. Page 17 of S&R rulebook under Poisoned shows the distinction. Also, the Cure spell for the Healer specifies removing poison wound markers.

Aye, makes sense to me... especially in light of the Nutgrass Tincture from Downwood... wouldn't want to go accidentally healing your bonus defense away.

Hahma wrote:
4. Good question. I believe the intent was for it to be discarded after taking a wound from a froglodyte, if the Anklet of the Frog was equipped. Perhaps the card could have been perfectly clear in saying, "...mouse with this anklet equipped..." But, two things make me rule that it has to be equipped to have to be discarded. First, for thematic reasons, the froglodyte wouldn't see it in the mouse's pack to take it away after wounding the mouse. Second, going by the rules for when a mouse is captured, items in the backpack aren't discarded.

Cool, that is what I was thinking... they see you wearing it, and get mad that you are using it.. so their attack is aimed at knocking it off you.
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Greg
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Mnty4rd wrote:
Hahma wrote:
1. This is certainly a tricky one. But I believe that yes, a Scamp can use Dodge while on a water space, however, normal rules would apply and he would have to end his move when entering a new water space. So if a Scamp was moving from water to water with Dodge, it would only be 1 space and they wouldn't get the full "up to 2 spaces". Also, since this isn't his normal movement, they would not be able to use Dodge to climb out of water to a non-water space.

I see what you are saying about still adhering to movement rules in water. Unlike the Shifting Cloak, which would move you due to the magic in the cloak.. Dodge is pretty much straight up mobility, representing Filch or Ditty being quick on their feet. So it makes sense that they could use it, but like you said, only one space and the move ends.
However, I don't see why it couldn't be used to get out of the water also... it would just require rolling a * to exit the water successfully, and once again, it would just be the one space since leaving water ends your move. We can use Scurry to get out of water, so why not Dodge?


Well Scurry is an action that allows you to use your "normal" movement a second time that turn. Dodge isn't your "normal" movement and IMO wasn't intended to be used to be able to get out of water. It has a cap of 2 spaces where you are making slight movements, whereas both Scamps have a Move value of 3 and a total "normal" move range max from 4-6 after rolling the die. So to me anyway, there is a difference between what you can do on a "normal" move and with the movement from Dodge.

That said, that's one of the distinctions that could have easily been made in the rulebook when referring to getting out of water. It could have said "it must use its entire normal move (or Scurry) to do so". But that may have been a case where the ones working on that were super close to the project and knew what was intended.

Ultimately, there may be a few cases where people will have to rule it their own way. People playing with 7 year-olds may allow for the Dodge to allow the mouse to move out of water, because they want the game to be easier when playing with the kids. But adults playing it, or playing with older kids may want the game to be more challenging and rule that Dodge can't be used to get out of water.

Sure there are a few corner cases like this one, and while it may bother some people that every single situation isn't explicitly covered in the rules, this is a co-op after all and it's easy for a group to make these rulings to how they want their game experience to be. It's not a tournament game where hardfast rulings are critical. Compared to other co-op's like Defenders of the Realm, Police Precinct, Flash Point, Shadows Over Camelot etc. M&M has a boatload more going on, and that means more corner cases where people have to make some rulings on their own.

So Lance, at the end of the day, play that how you want and it won't be wrong
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Teeka
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Hahma wrote:
4. Good question. I believe the intent was for it to be discarded after taking a wound from a froglodyte, if the Anklet of the Frog was equipped. Perhaps the card could have been perfectly clear in saying, "...mouse with this anklet equipped..." But, two things make me rule that it has to be equipped to have to be discarded. First, for thematic reasons, the froglodyte wouldn't see it in the mouse's pack to take it away after wounding the mouse. Second, going by the rules for when a mouse is captured, items in the backpack aren't discarded.


The way I see it: if an item isn't equipped, its card text doesn't apply. So neither does its 'negative ability' that might have you discard it.
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Lance Ford
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Hahma wrote:
Well Scurry is an action that allows you to use your "normal" movement a second time that turn. Dodge isn't your "normal" movement and IMO wasn't intended to be used to be able to get out of water. It has a cap of 2 spaces where you are making slight movements, whereas both Scamps have a Move value of 3 and a total "normal" move range max from 4-6 after rolling the die. So to me anyway, there is a difference between what you can do on a "normal" move and with the movement from Dodge.

That said, that's one of the distinctions that could have easily been made in the rulebook when referring to getting out of water. It could have said "it must use its entire normal move (or Scurry) to do so". But that may have been a case where the ones working on that were super close to the project and knew what was intended.

Ultimately, there may be a few cases where people will have to rule it their own way. People playing with 7 year-olds may allow for the Dodge to allow the mouse to move out of water, because they want the game to be easier when playing with the kids. But adults playing it, or playing with older kids may want the game to be more challenging and rule that Dodge can't be used to get out of water.

Sure there are a few corner cases like this one, and while it may bother some people that every single situation isn't explicitly covered in the rules, this is a co-op after all and it's easy for a group to make these rulings to how they want their game experience to be. It's not a tournament game where hardfast rulings are critical. Compared to other co-op's like Defenders of the Realm, Police Precinct, Flash Point, Shadows Over Camelot etc. M&M has a boatload more going on, and that means more corner cases where people have to make some rulings on their own.

So Lance, at the end of the day, play that how you want and it won't be wrong

Hmmm... and now I'm wondering about my interpretation of Scurry... From going through the forums in the past, to try to understand it, I came to the conclusion that Scurry was: after your "normal" move, you could use your action to Scurry... which entailed rolling a die, and then moving ONLY the value that came up on the die... not adding your base movement into it.
In other words, I didn't think it allowed your normal move a second time, just an additional few steps in place of your normal action. That is why, to me, it made sense that if Scurry was an additional few steps, that you "pay" your action step to get, then to pay 1 cheese to use an ability to give you two more steps wasn't much different. (and therefore.. if you can scurry out of water, then Dodge should probably work too)

But yeah... if it comes up with my game group, I will throw it out there for the group to decide... whereas, when I play with my daughter, I typically rule in favor of "whatever keeps the game moving."

Thank you for the feedback btw

Teeka wrote:

The way I see it: if an item isn't equipped, its card text doesn't apply. So neither does its 'negative ability' that might have you discard it.

Haha! reading that was one of those epiphany moments... something in my brain went "oh... duh."
Fantastic way to look at it... thanks.
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Greg
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Mnty4rd wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Well Scurry is an action that allows you to use your "normal" movement a second time that turn. Dodge isn't your "normal" movement and IMO wasn't intended to be used to be able to get out of water. It has a cap of 2 spaces where you are making slight movements, whereas both Scamps have a Move value of 3 and a total "normal" move range max from 4-6 after rolling the die. So to me anyway, there is a difference between what you can do on a "normal" move and with the movement from Dodge.

That said, that's one of the distinctions that could have easily been made in the rulebook when referring to getting out of water. It could have said "it must use its entire normal move (or Scurry) to do so". But that may have been a case where the ones working on that were super close to the project and knew what was intended.

Ultimately, there may be a few cases where people will have to rule it their own way. People playing with 7 year-olds may allow for the Dodge to allow the mouse to move out of water, because they want the game to be easier when playing with the kids. But adults playing it, or playing with older kids may want the game to be more challenging and rule that Dodge can't be used to get out of water.

Sure there are a few corner cases like this one, and while it may bother some people that every single situation isn't explicitly covered in the rules, this is a co-op after all and it's easy for a group to make these rulings to how they want their game experience to be. It's not a tournament game where hardfast rulings are critical. Compared to other co-op's like Defenders of the Realm, Police Precinct, Flash Point, Shadows Over Camelot etc. M&M has a boatload more going on, and that means more corner cases where people have to make some rulings on their own.

So Lance, at the end of the day, play that how you want and it won't be wrong

Hmmm... and now I'm wondering about my interpretation of Scurry... From going through the forums in the past, to try to understand it, I came to the conclusion that Scurry was: after your "normal" move, you could use your action to Scurry... which entailed rolling a die, and then moving ONLY the value that came up on the die... not adding your base movement into it.
In other words, I didn't think it allowed your normal move a second time, just an additional few steps in place of your normal action. That is why, to me, it made sense that if Scurry was an additional few steps, that you "pay" your action step to get, then to pay 1 cheese to use an ability to give you two more steps wasn't much different. (and therefore.. if you can scurry out of water, then Dodge should probably work too)

But yeah... if it comes up with my game group, I will throw it out there for the group to decide... whereas, when I play with my daughter, I typically rule in favor of "whatever keeps the game moving."

Thank you for the feedback btw



Scurry is just like a normal move. I know it says to roll a die, but then it says to use normal movement rules, or something to that effect. But I can see what you mean where paying cheese to Dodge 2 spaces should count like Scurry if you could only use the max die roll of 3 to move with Scurry.

Here's a link to a thread where Scurry was brought up like you thought it was. Jerry answers it here.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/872110/scurry
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Lance Ford
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Hahma wrote:
Scurry is just like a normal move. I know it says to roll a die, but then it says to use normal movement rules, or something to that effect. But I can see what you mean where paying cheese to Dodge 2 spaces should count like Scurry if you could only use the max die roll of 3 to move with Scurry.

Here's a link to a thread where Scurry was brought up like you thought it was. Jerry answers it here.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/872110/scurry


AhHA!
Well, that is groovy, thank you... going with that, I will indeed count Scurry as a second try to get out of water, but Dodge cannot be used the same way. (but could be used to move one space IN water)

And Scurry will be a lot more useful from now on. (Especially for Nez)

Heh... now the question... could you Dodge against the current?
(I'm thinking no, but hey... another question to throw at the game group )
 
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Greg
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Normal movement rules apply with Dodge. So no moving against current. Also, you can't use Dodge to move a mouse that couldn't normall move, such as when it is on a space where there are more minions than mice.
 
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Hahma wrote:
Normal movement rules apply with Dodge. So no moving against current. Also, you can't use Dodge to move a mouse that couldn't normall move, such as when it is on a space where there are more minions than mice.

you cannot move against the current? I must have missed that in the rules somewhere.
 
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Greg
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demonllama wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Normal movement rules apply with Dodge. So no moving against current. Also, you can't use Dodge to move a mouse that couldn't normall move, such as when it is on a space where there are more minions than mice.

you cannot move against the current? I must have missed that in the rules somewhere.


You didn't miss it, because it wasn't there. It was meant to be in there but somehow got left out. Jerry confirmed that mice can't move against the current. Minions can move against current though, since they ignore things like that when moving.
 
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richard spangle
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Hahma wrote:
demonllama wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Normal movement rules apply with Dodge. So no moving against current. Also, you can't use Dodge to move a mouse that couldn't normall move, such as when it is on a space where there are more minions than mice.

you cannot move against the current? I must have missed that in the rules somewhere.
You didn't miss it, because it wasn't there. It was meant to be in there but somehow got left out. Jerry confirmed that mice can't move against the current. Minions can move against current though, since they ignore things like that when moving.

please forgive if this sounds like a doubt (no insult intended), but can I ask for a reference point for this confirmation since it is not listed in the rules, in Downwood or in the FAQ's.
 
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Greg
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https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/893033/moving-water-current

A few posts down, Jerry confirmed it.
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richard spangle
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Hahma wrote:

thank you very much for that link. we will start playing by this immediately.
I cannot wait for an update to the FAQ's.
thanks again
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