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Fury of Dracula (Third/Fourth Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Encounter cards on Castle Dracula? rss

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Learn to Play says not to place an encounter card on your location if Dracula "is currently revealed".

But is he technically "revealed" at the castle?

Obviously Castle Dracula has a unique card back so the hunters intentionally know where he is.

But I can't find anywhere in the rules that says Castle Dracula is played faceup, or flipped, or that it makes Dracula immediately "reveal".

So does he play the castle facedown & put an encounter on it?

Thanks!

EDIT: Best I can tell from the rules, it is only revealed on the trail when a hunter ends his movement there (or maybe by some other card effect), exactly as per any location card... it's just that the hunters can tell that he's been there in advance of visiting it.
 
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brian
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Pudsy wrote:
Learn to Play says not to place an encounter card on your location if Dracula "is currently revealed".

But is he technically "revealed" at the castle?

Obviously Castle Dracula has a unique card back so the hunters intentionally know where he is.

But I can't find anywhere in the rules that says Castle Dracula is played faceup, or flipped, or that it makes Dracula immediately "reveal".

So does he play the castle facedown & put an encounter on it?

Thanks!

EDIT: Best I can tell from the rules, it is only revealed on the trail when a hunter ends his movement there (or maybe by some other card effect), exactly as per any location card... it's just that the hunters can tell that he's been there in advance of visiting it.
Dracula is only "revealed" when he is at the same location as a hunter. Just because the hideout gives information about where Dracula is - even his current location - he is not revealed unless a hunter is there as well. So you can place an encounter at Castle Dracula as normal. it doesn't matter which way Castle Dracula is flipped since the info on both sides of the cards tells you what card it is.
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Excellent, that's how we played. Thanks!

FWIW this is the exact opposite of the rules for 2nd Edition, which is possibly where the confusion stemmed from.
 
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brian
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Pudsy wrote:
Excellent, that's how we played. Thanks!

FWIW this is the exact opposite of the rules for 2nd Edition, which is possibly where the confusion stemmed from.
And maybe they missed putting the rules in - every thing is suspect. The only restrictions on Castle Dracula seem to be on the Hunters.
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Dusan Bugarcic
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In Learn to Play, page 8 it is written:

After Dracula moves, he chooses an encounter card from his
hand and places it facedown on top of the location card on the
first space of the trail. However, if Dracula placed a sea location
or Castle Dracula on the trail this turn, or if he is currently
revealed, he cannot place an encounter card.

So, you do not put encounter on Castle Dracula.
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LordDrake wrote:
In Learn to Play, page 8 it is written:

After Dracula moves, he chooses an encounter card from his
hand and places it facedown on top of the location card on the
first space of the trail. However, if Dracula placed a sea location
or Castle Dracula on the trail this turn, or if he is currently
revealed, he cannot place an encounter card.

So, you do not put encounter on Castle Dracula.
Thanks for posting. Presumably that's from the recent 4th Edition rules? (which I believe contains various rules clarifications)

For comparison, the text of that same paragraph in the "Learn to Play" from 3rd Edition (when the thread started) reads pretty much identically except for the lack of "or Castle Dracula"...

3rd Edition Learn to Play, pg. 8 wrote:
Placing an Encounter Card
After Dracula moves, he chooses an encounter card from his
hand and places it facedown on top of the location card on the
first space of the trail. If Dracula placed a sea location on the
trail this turn, or if he is currently revealed, he cannot place an
encounter card.
...
 
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Pudsy wrote:
LordDrake wrote:
In Learn to Play, page 8 it is written:

After Dracula moves, he chooses an encounter card from his
hand and places it facedown on top of the location card on the
first space of the trail. However, if Dracula placed a sea location
or Castle Dracula on the trail this turn, or if he is currently
revealed, he cannot place an encounter card.

So, you do not put encounter on Castle Dracula.
Thanks for posting. Presumably that's from the recent 4th Edition rules? (which I believe contains various rules clarifications)

For comparison, the text of that same paragraph in the "Learn to Play" from 3rd Edition (when the thread started) reads pretty much identically except for the lack of "or Castle Dracula"...

3rd Edition Learn to Play, pg. 8 wrote:
Placing an Encounter Card
After Dracula moves, he chooses an encounter card from his
hand and places it facedown on top of the location card on the
first space of the trail. If Dracula placed a sea location on the
trail this turn, or if he is currently revealed, he cannot place an
encounter card.
...
But note that the 4E reference guide states specifically that you do place an encounter on Castle Dracula unless he is revealed. That is a change from 3E. The reference guide overrules the lean to play
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Randal Divinski
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DaveD wrote:
LordDrake wrote:
In Learn to Play, page 8 it is written:
After Dracula moves, he chooses an encounter card from his
hand and places it facedown on top of the location card on the
first space of the trail. However, if Dracula placed a sea location
or Castle Dracula on the trail this turn, or if he is currently
revealed, he cannot place an encounter card.
But note that the 4E reference guide states specifically that you do place an encounter on Castle Dracula unless he is revealed. That is a change from 3E. The reference guide overrules the lean to play
I disagree with Dave's solution in this case. If there is something generalised in the LTP, and the RR refers to a specific sub-category where something different happens, that is how the RR "over-rules" the LTP. But when the LTP says one thing, and the RR says the opposite, that indicates a error in how the rules are written. In that case, players have to make their own judgement as to which is correct.

Here's the relevant text in 4E RR: "As with any city location, unless Dracula is revealed, an encounter card is placed as normal." Here's the problem: Castle Dracula is revealed when it is placed on the trail -- and when Dracula's current location is revealed, Dracula is revealed. So the "unless Dracula is revealed" condition is always in effect as far as I can tell.

Therefore, I can see only two ways an encounter card can be placed on Castle Dracula: through the effect of an event card or when it becomes a lair. [That is, an encounter can only be placed when it is not on the first space of the trail.]

I believe that interpretation satisfies the literal reading of both the LTP and RR. I would argue that an interpretation that doesn't result in a contradiction is the one to use.

However, that being said, there is a clear rules mistake here: the text awkwardness cannot have been intentional. Even if my interpretation is correct, the RR text as written is about the most unhelpful way it could have been presented.
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randiv wrote:
DaveD wrote:
LordDrake wrote:
In Learn to Play, page 8 it is written:
After Dracula moves, he chooses an encounter card from his
hand and places it facedown on top of the location card on the
first space of the trail. However, if Dracula placed a sea location
or Castle Dracula on the trail this turn, or if he is currently
revealed, he cannot place an encounter card.
But note that the 4E reference guide states specifically that you do place an encounter on Castle Dracula unless he is revealed. That is a change from 3E. The reference guide overrules the lean to play
I disagree with Dave's solution in this case. If there is something generalised in the LTP, and the RR refers to a specific sub-category where something different happens, that is how the RR "over-rules" the LTP. But when the LTP says one thing, and the RR says the opposite, that indicates a error in how the rules are written. In that case, players have to make their own judgement as to which is correct.

Here's the relevant text in 4E RR: "As with any city location, unless Dracula is revealed, an encounter card is placed as normal." Here's the problem: Castle Dracula is revealed when it is placed on the trail -- and when Dracula's current location is revealed, Dracula is revealed. So the "unless Dracula is revealed" condition is always in effect as far as I can tell.

Therefore, I can see only two ways an encounter card can be placed on Castle Dracula: through the effect of an event card or when it becomes a lair. [That is, an encounter can only be placed when it is not on the first space of the trail.]

I believe that interpretation satisfies the literal reading of both the LTP and RR. I would argue that an interpretation that doesn't result in a contradiction is the one to use.

However, that being said, there is a clear rules mistake here: the text awkwardness cannot have been intentional. Even if my interpretation is correct, the RR text as written is about the most unhelpful way it could have been presented.
This clearly needs to be clarified and I agree completely that there is an error here.

Failing that clarification, I will say that I disagree with the suggestion that Dracula is revealed automatically when he moves to Castle Dracula. The rules on revealing Dracula state that he revealed when he is on the same location as a hunter and that triggers the location card being face up, I would suggest that in the terms of the game being revealed means that the hunters know not only his current location, but exactly where he is in that location.

In the case of Castle Dracula he moves there and places the location and places the card face down, the hunters may know he's in there somewhere because the card has a different back, but he is not revealed, because the card is not face up and so, according, to the reference guide, may place an encounter.

I am quite prepared to accept that I'm wrong if Frank Brooks tells me that it was the intention for there to be no encounters there, but I have to say I consider it ridiculous if that is the case. Of all places on the board, Dracula should be able to have encounters at Castle Dracula.
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Randal Divinski
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DaveD wrote:
In the case of Castle Dracula he moves there and places the location and places the card face down, the hunters may know he's in there somewhere because the card has a different back, but he is not revealed, because the card is not face up and so, according, to the reference guide, may place an encounter.
But Castle Dracula can never be "face down" -- what would be the "face up" side on other cards is printed on both sides.

Also, it is not the case that Dracula is only revealed when a hunter is at the same location. There are several event cards that may reveal a location on the trail, and if it is first location on the trail, that reveals Dracula.

While thematically you have a point, at the end of the original novel they chased Dracula's coffin back to his castle and intercepted it before he could rise (and place an "encounters").
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randiv wrote:
DaveD wrote:
In the case of Castle Dracula he moves there and places the location and places the card face down, the hunters may know he's in there somewhere because the card has a different back, but he is not revealed, because the card is not face up and so, according, to the reference guide, may place an encounter.
But Castle Dracula can never be "face down" -- what would be the "face up" side on other cards is printed on both sides.

Also, it is not the case that Dracula is only revealed when a hunter is at the same location. There are several event cards that may reveal a location on the trail, and if it is first location on the trail, that reveals Dracula.

While thematically you have a point, at the end of the original novel they chased Dracula's coffin back to his castle and intercepted it before he could rise (and place an "encounters").
Castle Dracula can be face down. It was the case in 2E that the card was double sided, but this is not the case in 3/4E. It has a different back to other locations so the hunters know when it is placed on the trail, but the face up side is obvious as it has the location name. The card is placed face down so Dracula is not revealed by playing it, unless there is a hunter present, so Dracula can place an encounter according to the RG.

I will grant that there are events that can reveal Dracula's current location, but that is not the case here, the situation here concerns when Dracula places the card face down on the trail and the rules don't say that he is revealed by placing Castle Dracula on the trail.

The case at the end of the novel has the hunters and Dracula present at the same time, so no encounter could be placed.
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Randal Divinski
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I stand corrected a some of the details. Supposing you are right, Dave, and there is meant to be an encounter placed. Then the LTP text is just wrong: possibly that was an initial decision, then during revisions of the RR, it swung the other way but they forgot to change the LTP? But also the writer forgot the nature of the confusion from 3E, and ended up writing a bullet point that failed to address the original source of confusion.

That all is plausible. So this remains one of the few rules were 4E is still as confounding as 3E.
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randiv wrote:
I stand corrected a some of the details. Supposing you are right, Dave, and there is meant to be an encounter placed. Then the LTP text is just wrong: possibly that was an initial decision, then during revisions of the RR, it swung the other way but they forgot to change the LTP? But also the writer forgot the nature of the confusion from 3E, and ended up writing a bullet point that failed to address the original source of confusion.

That all is plausible. So this remains one of the few rules were 4E is still as confounding as 3E.
Equally, if you are right then the RG is just wrong. I can't speak to what happened here or what was the intention regards 4E, but I think it was implicit in the 3E rules that you could place encounters at the castle and will play that way.
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It seems clear to me that "revealed" is not the same as "the hunters know where Dracula is", otherwise in a bit of cases the hunters could demand for Dracula to reveal himself because there are no other places he could move but one (after a fight, or after a card like Newspaper Report of Evil Presence has been played), and this is not the way it works.
 
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