Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
10 Posts

Perdition's Mouth: Abyssal Rift» Forums » General

Subject: Choice of enemies to spawn rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jim Johnson
United States
Germantown
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I was watching Rahdo's runthrough, and noticed that, when he moved miniatures into the reserve piles or spawned them onto the board, he chose the figures that were most advantageous. This seems a little manipulative of the game system to me.

I would think that any reinforcements would either be determined randomly, or would be selected on the basis of what would be the most detrimental to the party. I know this is easily house ruled, but was curious as to what others thought about it.

I also had a similar feeling about the ghost pawn on the players' rondel, but, since the players are free to discuss where the best place is to put their own pawns, the ghost pawn can be considered the same as another player. So I don't have as much of a problem with that.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Stripling
United States
Lowell
Arkansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, it's your choice (though bc of that you're free to make it random). The game is pretty challenging, so this aspect Of the game is seen as part of the strategy that allows you to survive.
-ryanjamal
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jalmari Ruokojärvi
Finland
flag msg tools
... staring straight into your soul.
badge
Whoah! I didn't expect to see that! Shame on you.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So he did or at least attempted to do. Whether he made the right calls depends on the game proceeded. As I recall, he was playing the first map which can almost be considered as a tutorial in its relative simplicity. Making advantageous enough of a choices on either of that maps scenarios is relatively easy.

What Ryan said is true. And making the "most advantageous" choice isn't actually that clear cut of a deal as it initially seems as it is like tip-toeing on a knife's edge (making bad calls though is super easy, as I've discovered):

-Taking the slow monsters and rushing through the map is an option but then you have a time limit of when the bad stuff comes out and reaches you. Rushing also most likely means leaving the loot and victims behind which will make the rest of the campaign more challenging.
-Fighting easy monster first is an option but at the point there's only big ones left, you're screwed.
-Fighting big monsters first might take some time and require manoevuring which could lead to more monsters spawning which could lead you to running out of time and manoeuvering space.
-And making the balanced picks which allows the heroes to stay functional at all times is tricky business in every single map after the first one.


The spawning system is admittedly a bit of an opinion divider but it does work gorgeously at least in my opinion. At some point the devs tried to develop a random spawning system, but it was too dumb and broke down one way or another way too easily from what I hear. And I could imagine that random spawns would have to be balanced with more balanced monsters (in relation to heroes) which would start nudging the game towards being a high fantasy hack and slash game. Or something like that.

Regardless, ditching the random spawns was a good design choice in my opinion but I do love seeing people trying to develop better systems than what the devs were able to make. The barrier for trying to do so at least in Perdition's Mouth's case is quite low, so I'll be waiting with great interest to see if any house rulers and modders will actually be able to develop alternative spawn systems that would be able to match or even surpass Perdition's Mouth's own quite deterministic spawn system!

And the ghost peg is just a solo/2p play balancing mechanic. Having less pegs on the rondel makes movement on it more expensive (1-3 character limits in the action spokes) and that coupled with having less characters on the map would just cut flexibility and cut the player's power, which would be bad for balance in a game that is already challenging. It's not a thematically driven design choice, but it's your friend when you have none at hand to play with and if you just happen suck at multitasking (like I do).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Ham
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
CLICK THIS BEAGLE if you're looking for in-depth gameplay video run-throughs! :)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dakkadakka1 wrote:
I would think that any reinforcements would either be determined randomly, or would be selected on the basis of what would be the most detrimental to the party.
The way the game is balanced, if you went with either of those options, you would *never* make it to the end of the campaign. The odds are purposely stacked against you in PM, so you need every advantage you can get
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Timo Multamäki
Finland
ASKA
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rahdo wrote:
dakkadakka1 wrote:
I would think that any reinforcements would either be determined randomly, or would be selected on the basis of what would be the most detrimental to the party.
The way the game is balanced, if you went with either of those options, you would *never* make it to the end of the campaign. The odds are purposely stacked against you in PM, so you need every advantage you can get

I think Rahdo is certainly correct. If you'd go for random option or wouldn't choose wisely, likelihood of your Heroes all dying early is very high.

But like Jalmari said, our development team is very eager on finding out what every budding modder will do with the Perdition's Mouth. Maybe you'll find alternative enemy placement system, which is better than current. It'll be tough, but let's call it a challenge
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Johnson
United States
Germantown
Tennessee
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rahdo wrote:
dakkadakka1 wrote:
I would think that any reinforcements would either be determined randomly, or would be selected on the basis of what would be the most detrimental to the party.
The way the game is balanced, if you went with either of those options, you would *never* make it to the end of the campaign. The odds are purposely stacked against you in PM, so you need every advantage you can get :)

If the design of the game takes the issue into account that people will choose the enemies and increases the difficulty accordingly, then choosing would be the only option. I ran into that with another solitaire game I was playing. Without boring everyone with details, there is an action you can take in the game that is unrealistic, ahistorical, and (IMHO) very cheesy. I played my first game intentionally not doing it that way, and got my rear end handed to me big time. I wrote the designer about it, and his reply was, essentially, he knew that players were going to be playing the game that way. So, instead of having a rule that said "You can't do that", he just ramped up the difficulty to compensate for it.

I understand that sometimes game mechanics have to be introduced to ensure balance or playability; and the intent of this post was not to suggest that it be handled differently. I was just pointing out that DC's by their very nature are chaotic and random, even in a themed dungeon. Allowing a player to pick his own enemies based on what's currently best for the party seems to contradict that nature.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thibaud Dejardin
France
Ferrère-La-Grande
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dakkadakka1 wrote:
I was just pointing out that DC's by their very nature are chaotic and random, even in a themed dungeon. Allowing a player to pick his own enemies based on what's currently best for the party seems to contradict that nature.
The rule could have been: runners, than acolytes, than....
But it would have been one hard rule to remember, and not really necessary, when "player chooses" does the job and even adds some strategic choices to the story.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jalmari Ruokojärvi
Finland
flag msg tools
... staring straight into your soul.
badge
Whoah! I didn't expect to see that! Shame on you.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dakkadakka1 wrote:
rahdo wrote:
dakkadakka1 wrote:
I would think that any reinforcements would either be determined randomly, or would be selected on the basis of what would be the most detrimental to the party.
The way the game is balanced, if you went with either of those options, you would *never* make it to the end of the campaign. The odds are purposely stacked against you in PM, so you need every advantage you can get

If the design of the game takes the issue into account that people will choose the enemies and increases the difficulty accordingly, then choosing would be the only option. I ran into that with another solitaire game I was playing. Without boring everyone with details, there is an action you can take in the game that is unrealistic, ahistorical, and (IMHO) very cheesy. I played my first game intentionally not doing it that way, and got my rear end handed to me big time. I wrote the designer about it, and his reply was, essentially, he knew that players were going to be playing the game that way. So, instead of having a rule that said "You can't do that", he just ramped up the difficulty to compensate for it.

I understand that sometimes game mechanics have to be introduced to ensure balance or playability; and the intent of this post was not to suggest that it be handled differently. I was just pointing out that DC's by their very nature are chaotic and random, even in a themed dungeon. Allowing a player to pick his own enemies based on what's currently best for the party seems to contradict that nature.


I don't know what this game is that you're talking about, so I can't comment much on it (and since I'm curious guy, feel free to bore me with details ). In Perdition's Mouth though I can say that there just enough of random and chaos to keep me at the edge of the seat but not too much of it so that I'd get the feeling of being at the mercy of random (and I really hate that feeling). The enemy choosing mechanic was most likely chosen over determined spawns, random spawns, or asymmetrical 1 vs everybody else setup to keep the player downtime at minimum. The decisions the players can make during the enemy turn are limited but meaningful and at no point have I ever felt comfortable at making any call for I know that I'll have the make the nasty calls sooner or later and that I'll only get to choose when I make which calls. And rest assured, the game has been in development for 4 years and those years have been spent on rigorously iterating and occasionally also scrapping the mechanics because either the designers and/or playtesters weren't happy with them.

Nothing interesting ever happens if things are always done the way they have always been done. I love a good dungeon crawler just like any other chump or chumpette, but one thing I've always hated in them is that way too often it's not worth it to cooperate and plan much beyond "I smack this and you smack that" for the chaos and randomness makes it not quite worth it. Perdition's Mouth has randomness in several places but you can always estimate the odds and in most of the places you at least have an option to do something about the situation before it actually happens. At least in my opinion its not a bad thing at all. It's quite refreshing, fair, and most importantly, it doesn't break any laws!
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Byron Campbell
United States
Santa Clarita
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
To me, this aspect works sort of like a game timer. Early in the scenario, you can spawn weaklings and try to eliminate the hard monsters that started out on the board. But if you dawdle too much (say, trying to open all the treasures) you will be forced to spawn the Summoners and Chi'leen, and you are in for a world of hurt. ;)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Timo Multamäki
Finland
ASKA
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kittenhoarder wrote:
To me, this aspect works sort of like a game timer. Early in the scenario, you can spawn weaklings and try to eliminate the hard monsters that started out on the board. But if you dawdle too much (say, trying to open all the treasures) you will be forced to spawn the Summoners and Chi'leen, and you are in for a world of hurt.
Indeed. This is the case.

And it is certainly a tactical choice that you'll have to do. Game does not force it on you.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls