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Subject: Adding industry to West rss

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Björn von Knorring
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Uppsala
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The picture is a swedish cartoon-figure Herman Hedning. English info here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Hedning
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I have played 10 games of T&T now and although every game has develop very differently it seems that all games* have in common that West was struggling. I don't mind a challenge but it seems to me that the up-hill might be to hard. It seems that the general consensus is that West is indeed the sick man of Europe although I don't rule out that we haven't figured out how to play West yet.

So, with that in mind I have been tossing with the idea to let West start with eight IND instead of seven. I don't think it would drasticly tip the balance but might give West somewhat easier time.

Suggestions on this or should we just fight on and try to figure out how to do it properly:-)

* West won game where USSR & Germany was at each other throats basicaly from the starts so West (a wargamer beginner who had never played T&T before could just cruise to the win).
 
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Brian Evans
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Richmond
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It is my personal experience and opinion that the West has a great shot at winning. Just survive and yell at the Soviets to get involved until the Americans show up and then you can turn the tables on the Axis at your leisure. Now, I've played with so many different rule-sets by this point that my opinion may be skewed by previous iterations but there it is, all the same. With that said, I plan on playing the West in my next game and taking on the challenge.

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Tom Stearns
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I have played a game where the west won. All three of are very experienced war gamers. In that game the Axis were very aggressive and the Soviet player went to war with the Axis as well. So all three powers were fighting.
 
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Borat Sagdiyev
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The biggest problem with the West strategy is that IMHO it is too dependent on the luck of the draw. If you don't get enough US cards during the game, it is very difficult to get the US as a satellite.

I've already played three games as the West, and in two of them only got the Americans in 1944. I just got the US once in the historical timetable and that was mainly due to an extremely lucky draw of three US cards in the same turn.

From 1940 on, both the Axis and the Soviets are going to neutralize any diplomatic advances by the West in the US. And they usually have a higher production margin to buy more than enough command cards every turn.

So, if I changed something to improve the West chances in the game, it would be the rules regarding the US entrance into the war.
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Mark Bausman
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In my last gane the West won. The Axis decided not to attack so West and Russia built and declared war late in the game. Russia went for Berlin and lost. West went for Ruhr. West and Axis fought a long battle with reinforcements coming every season. Battle did not resolve by end of game. West took a lightly defended Rome to get the economic victory. Russia was 3rd dog with no chance to win.

Everyones priority was to build production. At one stage, Axis had 18 production.

The few times I have played this game I believe that Axis must preposition subs to cut off West production and then DOW to get them out of Paris. With a strong build advantage, Axis can overcome London.

West can win if they build industry. If Axis leaves them alone they can go for the win by taking out Russia.

Russia needs the Axis to battle the West so they can sneak in a win by taking Delhi and maybe Rome or even Berlin. If Axis does not DOW West then Russia has little chance.
 
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John Griffey
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harzal wrote:
So, if I changed something to improve the West chances in the game, it would be the rules regarding the US entrance into the war.


Historically, USA opinion became alarmed about the war in Europe only after the unexpected fall of France.

VARIANT: Instead of adding one Western Influence each new year beginning 1942, add one Western Influence each new year beginning after the fall of France.
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Craig Besinque
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Re: +USA Influence based on fall of France
That is certainly a justifiable and logical rule.
We actually had it in T&T for a long time.

Eventually we threw it out because it had such a huge negative effect on Axis willingness to attack France (= arguably adverse overall effect).

Just saying. YMMV.

Craig
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juerg haeberli
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Harzal,

Dont you forget all the cards that the West gets from Axis and Sowjet VoN's ?

In our games the Axis is usually busy using ac cards for command or productive diplomacy ( resources, satellites, protectorates)

Of course this changes if Axis goes West. Then it will try to starve West for resources.
Still hard work with all the other things it has to do.
Nice example can be seen in my last session report wher US entred 41 I believe.
 
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Borat Sagdiyev
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haeberich wrote:
Harzal,

Dont you forget all the cards that the West gets from Axis and Sowjet VoN's ?


I'm not forgetting them. But if you don't get any US cards, you don't get any US cards. Period.

In my last game I got 12 cards in one turn due to Axis and Sovier VoNs. None of them had any effect on the US status. And in the game before, I did not see more than 4-5 US cards in the entire game due to a persistent Axis blockade since 1939.

Quote:
In our games the Axis is usually busy using ac cards for command or productive diplomacy ( resources, satellites, protectorates)

Of course this changes if Axis goes West. Then it will try to starve West for resources.
Still hard work with all the other things it has to do.

It depends, but if the Axis does not pursue an aggressive blockade strategy against the West then the Soviets are also not interested in the West getting the US.

So, from 1939-40 on you have the two other players collaborating to neutralize all the West efforts in the US.

[q]Nice example can be seen in my last session report wher US entred 41 I believe.


You were lucky that your opponents were so complacent wit you. In my three games with the West, all my opponents have been much more active against the possibility of a US entrance in the war.
 
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juerg haeberli
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Does in your games the Axis always go west ?

If yes yes...how often has it won ?
 
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Borat Sagdiyev
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He didn't go West in my last game. In fact, the West did not suffer any blockade at all.

As I said before, the US cards simply didn't come into my hands. And when they did, both the Axis and the Soviets neutralized them.
 
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juerg haeberli
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You have either very bad luck or the other two players raally dont like the Anericans.

How did it turn out when the Axis didnt turn West ?
 
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Borat Sagdiyev
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Very bad luck in two different games with different opponents?? Don't think so.

In any case, I don't blame the other players for trying to delay the US entrance in the war as long as possible. It's not good news for them if the Americans start arriving in full force on the historical timetable.

And when the Axis didn't turn West, they won an economic victory in 1945 after declaring war to the Soviets in 1944 and stealing Romania, Bulgaria and Finland from them.
 
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Brian Evans
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It sounds like your opponents were drawing a fair number of USA cards with which to offset your own gains. If the number of USA cards were to increase, wouldn't it make sense that the other players would likewise draw more as well as you? So, would it really change the equation any?


I think 1944 American entry isn't terribly uncommon, especially with a competitive group. Still, 12 free CV steps can blast a pretty big hole somewhere.

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John Griffey
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Re: + USA Influence based on Fall of France.

cbesinque wrote:
That is certainly a justifiable and logical rule.
We actually had it in T&T for a long time.

Eventually we threw it out because it had such a huge negative effect on Axis willingness to attack France (= arguably adverse overall effect).

Just saying. YMMV.

Craig


If Axis takes only Lorraine and lets West control Paris, the variant delays USA entry. Instead of +1 USA Influence in 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945, West gets zero extra USA Influence, as USA Influence begins only after fall of Paris.

That's too gamey, though. There should be a strong incentive for Axis to take Paris, either sooner, or later.

Another effect of fall of Paris was that it hugely enhanced Axis prestige in Europe, and it was an economic windfall.

So in addition I would deal 4 Action cards to any Faction which captures a Capital, and I would allow it to take another 2 cards from the Hand of the Faction which lost the Capital.

So the incentives to attack France and take Paris are now:

--West loses 2, Axis gains 2 Resources.
--Axis is dealt 4 Action cards.
--Axis takes 2 cards from West's Hand.
--All French units eliminated.

That should be enough to inspire an early Axis attack.

I would also like to see Western Satellite USA's Washington become an alternative Main Capital for West, so that if London falls, but not Paris, the West is still in the game. (+1 POP to Washington in this case.)

Also, +1 USA Influence for West each year after London has fallen to Axis.


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