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Subject: Cumbersome Rulings rss

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Trea The Hunter
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For starters, let me detail the "Cumbersome" Gear Quality.

"Survivors must spend both movement and activation to activate Cumbersome gear."

So, in order to activate it, we must spend our full turn's allowance of actions to use it. But...

Let's also detail Pounce.
"Spend [move] and [activation] to move 3 spaces in a straight line. Then, if you moved 3 spaces, activate a melee weapon with +1 Strength."

Does this imply that we can activate a Weapon with the Cumbersome trait by using Pounce? I'd assume via the Rule of Death that that'd be a No Go, since that gives the Survivor the ability to overcome a major weakness of the Cumbersome quality that isn't built into another card that directly says "Ignore Cumbersome" (similar to how the "Frenzied" condition ignores the "Slow" quality).

Opinions?
 
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Mike H
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I'm on the side of no because the ability of pounce is to 'activate' a weapon but activating a cumbersome weapon also requires your movement which you already spent.
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Drake Coker
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Good question!

I'll note that moving three spaces in a straight line is often not terribly useful, so it's not like Pounce is a free ride for Cumbersome.

Regardless, I have no idea what the resolution of this question should be.
 
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Joseph Nudi
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Victoli wrote:
For starters, let me detail the "Cumbersome" Gear Quality.

"Survivors must spend both movement and activation to activate Cumbersome gear."

So, in order to activate it, we must spend our full turn's allowance of actions to use it. But...

Let's also detail Pounce.
"Spend [move] and [activation] to move 3 spaces in a straight line. Then, if you moved 3 spaces, activate a melee weapon with +1 Strength."

Does this imply that we can activate a Weapon with the Cumbersome trait by using Pounce? I'd assume via the Rule of Death that that'd be a No Go, since that gives the Survivor the ability to overcome a major weakness of the Cumbersome quality that isn't built into another card that directly says "Ignore Cumbersome" (similar to how the "Frenzied" condition ignores the "Slow" quality).

Opinions?
I'd need to go reread the rules, but I thought that folks previously did say that yes, you could avoid the cumbersome rules with this method.
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Kyle Currie
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Blueskew wrote:

I'd need to go reread the rules, but I thought that folks previously did say that yes, you could avoid the cumbersome rules with this method.
I play it this way. Makes the Twilight Sword a little more manageable for the first couple hits.
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Trea The Hunter
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CowardlyHero wrote:
I'm on the side of no because the ability of pounce is to 'activate' a weapon but activating a cumbersome weapon also requires your movement which you already spent.
I could counter this by stating that the Activation is overwritten by Pounce's Activation requirements... but I'm still not so sure.

Looks like my current crew is rolling with the Pounce-Override rules. Thanks for the inputs!

We're struggle-busing hard against the Lv1 Butcher Nemesis Encounter. He's pretty rough. Lol, wish us luck!
 
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E Licious
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The way pounce reads, you activate the weapon if you moved 3 spaces forward in a straight line. It does not say to pay any more costs associated with activating the weapon, or the act of pouncing would invalidate all weapon activations as you would need to pay the lightning bolt cost.

Not that it's very useful. If you move into position to pounce, you could have just moved into position to swing normally. Pounce is very, very situational. About the only times I use it are when the white lion has ground fighting.
 
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Trea The Hunter
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ELicious wrote:
The way pounce reads, you activate the weapon if you moved 3 spaces forward in a straight line. It does not say to pay any more costs associated with activating the weapon, or the act of pouncing would invalidate all weapon activations as you would need to pay the lightning bolt cost.
That's a very eloquent way of putting it. Thanks!

ELicious wrote:
Not that it's very useful. If you move into position to pounce, you could have just moved into position to swing normally. Pounce is very, very situational. About the only times I use it are when the white lion has ground fighting.
It's very useful for the Cumbersome trait of some weapons that require you to use both your Activation and your Move to activate the weapon. Pounce allows you to move and strike without having to use Rush (i.e. while a survivor is Frenzied and cannot spend Survival points).
 
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Ian Gill
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Or apply the Rule of Death on page 39 and assume "no" as you should play the rule which disadvantages the survivors the most.

Of course, you can choose the play a game anyway you wish but I actually like having a general principle quite clearly stated like this.
 
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Benj Davis
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I feel like the point of Pounce is to give a highly limited Strength boost if you charged. I'm not sure why it's framed this way, rather than just as an "if you've moved 3 or more spaces in a straight line this turn, you get +1 Strength for this turn".
 
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Ian Gill
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Thematically the word "pounce" doesnt imply to me that it makes a cumbersome weapon any less difficult to use.
You have to spend an extra move action to use it. If you have used the move action to do the pounce you haven't got an extra move action to give up.

 
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Trea The Hunter
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Posco wrote:
Or apply the Rule of Death on page 39 and assume "no" as you should play the rule which disadvantages the survivors the most.

Of course, you can choose the play a game anyway you wish but I actually like having a general principle quite clearly stated like this.
Should we then also apply the Activation Cost of a weapon without Cumbersome to the cost of Pounce as per E Licious' explanation?

ELicious wrote:
The way pounce reads, you activate the weapon if you moved 3 spaces forward in a straight line. It does not say to pay any more costs associated with activating the weapon, or the act of pouncing would invalidate all weapon activations as you would need to pay the lightning bolt cost.
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Victoli wrote:
Posco wrote:
Or apply the Rule of Death on page 39 and assume "no" as you should play the rule which disadvantages the survivors the most.

Of course, you can choose the play a game anyway you wish but I actually like having a general principle quite clearly stated like this.
Should we then also apply the Activation Cost of a weapon without Cumbersome to the cost of Pounce as per E Licious' explanation?
No, that's obviously absurd, you don't have to Surge just to pounce.

Using the only line of reasoning that makes any sense at all, pounce overcomes the cumbersome trait, for melee weapons, when pouncing.

Edit: once again, Blueskew is the first response to put forward the right answer in a thread, he's a help ninja.
 
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Ian Gill
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Quote:


Should we then also apply the Activation Cost of a weapon without Cumbersome to the cost of Pounce as per E Licious' explanation?

No. Didn't say that.

pounce allows you to activate a weapon.
However, to activate a cumbersome weapon you have to sacrifice a move to do so. That is a specific difference between a normal weapon and a cumbersome one.

You can certainly play that under pounce that difference doesn't exist or the cost has cost has already been paid by the cost of pounce itself.
It is your game, make a decision and play that way.


I don't think the rules are definitive either way as, clearly, people have different opinions and maybe it will be clarified eventually.

In the meantime, if I encounter the situation I will probably assume it can't, because I think a cumbersome weapon is supposed to prevent movement when using it (you have to sacrifice a move to use it) and following the Rule of Death.


 
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Ian Gill
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Quote:

No, that's obviously absurd, you don't have to Surge just to pounce.
and probably would be if I had ever said you had to shake
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Posco wrote:
Quote:

No, that's obviously absurd, you don't have to Surge just to pounce.
and probably would be if I had ever said you had to shake
No, but it's the clear logical conclusion from your post above.

Edit: I just want to be clear that the OP's rule text is verbatim, but here it is again
Rulebook: Page 46 Weapon Gear wrote:
[Lightning Bolt]Indicates spending 1 activation is required to attack with this weapon.
Glossary: Pounce wrote:
"Spend [chess knight] and [lightning bolt] to move 3 spaces in a straight line. Then, if you moved 3 spaces, activate a melee weapon with +1 Strength."
Glossary: Cumbersome wrote:
A gear special rule, Survivors must spend both movement and activation to activate Cumbersome Gear.
If you assume that you have to follow those rules for activating cumbersome gear, then you have to assume that you have to spend an activation (A.k.a. SURGE) to activate a normal weapon when you pounce.

After all, pounce says to activate them, so if you don't assume it's free for one, nothing even hints that it would be free for the other.

It's the only way to be consistent with the rules as written.

Oh well, must be true, Rule of Death.
 
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Ian Gill
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Not seeing your certainty ! I keep looking at what I've posted above and don't see any mention of needing to surge to attack during pounce with ANY weapon (normal or cumbersome)

It is nothing to do with needing a surge to activate. It is the movement that needs to be used twice to use a cumbersome weapon during pounce !

Ie

To move you use 1 movement

To attack with a normal weapon you use 1 activation

To use a cumbersome weapon you use 1 movement and 1 activation, ie you cannot move any spaces that turn because your "move" is used by your attack.

To pounce requires 1 movement and 1 activation and allows you to attack with a melee weapon as part of that.. No surge is needed. The attack is part of the pounce and is "FREE" provided that you moved 3 spaces.

Now a cumbersome weapon requires a move in addition to an activation in order to be used.
But your move has been required as part of the cost of the pounce

I can see how some players can see that the movement used as part of pounce could be counted for both if you think that is okay.
I dont feel that is right as it treats a cumbersome weapon as exactly the same as a standard weapon during a pounce but with a free bonus.

To me the thematic bit of a cumbersome weapon is that it is more difficult to use.


Hence, I've explained that different interptetation. I cant categorically state it is right but I will play it that way and you can play your way pending some official word. However, once I encounter that situation during a game And play a certain way I would probably then stay consistent.




 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Posco wrote:
Not seeing your certainty !

To move you use 1 movement
Yes.

Posco wrote:
To attack with a normal weapon you use 1 activation
Also yes!

Posco wrote:
ie you cannot move any spaces that turn because your "move" is used by your attack.
No, that is not an example of that, a movement is something in the game represented by the symbol of a chess Knight. See the first thing you said above, you can use a cumbersome weapon, move further, and even Dash in the same turn with different gear, abilities, and survival. The key is that it is based on 1 [Movement], not you giving up your move.

Posco wrote:
To pounce requires 1 movement and 1 activation and allows you to attack with a melee weapon as part of that.
No, it allows you to activate a melee weapon. I quoted Pounce in the post right above yours. Also, as I quoted from the rulebook above, attacking normally requires you to spend a [Lightning Bolt] known as an Activation.

Posco wrote:
Now a cumbersome weapon requires a move in addition to an activation in order to be used.
No, it requires 1 [Movement] and 1 [Lightning Bolt] to Activate it. Also quoted above.

Activate is the wording used with Cumbersome weapons. It is all consistent.

Your interpretation is that Pounce ignores the Activate Requirement for normal weapons, but not for Cumbersome weapons. It says nothing of the sort.

This is logically incompatible, even if it did.

Could you please read my post right above yours? I read your posts, it's better when it's fair.
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Ian Gill
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We are clearly not on the same page (and I do read your posts) so correct these if they are wrong.
C for chessman, L for lightning
Ignore any other ways of moving etc, just consider base survivors, otherwise it gets complicated

On your turn you get one C And 1 L

To attack requires L

To attack with Cumbersome requires a C as an additional cost (eg text on Cat Gut Bow card and pg 45)

To move requires C

To pounce requires both C and L but allows you to activate with a melee weapon.

- i have assumed that activation does not require another L when using a standard weapon but is inherent in the pounce. Do you agree or not.

On that basis

Attacking with a cumbersome weapon requires a C as an additional cost, as above.

Where can that C come from if your pounce has already used both your C & L







 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Okay, so going off rulebook wording:

To attack with a weapon first you must activate it, to do so you spend L

As for cumbersome, not to attack with cumbersome; but to activate it, spend C + L. :/ See quote:
Glossary: Cumbersome wrote:
A gear special rule, Survivors must spend both movement(C) and activation(L) to activate Cumbersome Gear.
To me, there is no extra C that needs to be taken into account, Pounce says it:
Glossary: Pounce wrote:
"Spend C and L to move 3 spaces in a straight line. Then, if you moved 3 spaces, activate a melee weapon with +1 Strength."
I think that bypasses the additional cost of spending C and L.

If it doesn't, then there's no way to say that Pounce lets you activate a non-cumbersome weapon without spending an additional L, as your first L was spent into Pounce and not to activate the weapon...
 
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Ian Gill
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You above implied that I didn't read your posts but all you appear to have done is restate, in a convoluted way, that the L to activate a melee weapon is the same L that is used during a pounce.

If you read my posts again, you will find I have never disputed this. At all ! You have just inferred that I have (logically - apparently)

However a cumbersome weapon requires an ADDITIONAL C.

The crux of the question is whether the C used to pounce can also count as the "additional" C of a cumbersome weapon.
As the pounce involves moving I assume not as the C is being used for some movement. It is therefore not ADDITIONAL.

As I have pointed out, I might be wrong, but I am going to follow the rule of Death and play it the harder way.


But, just assume that the C required by pounce covers the additional C of a cumbersome weapon, then a cumbersome weapon is harder to use in a normal turn but when you pounce it is as easy to use as any other weapon.
Not sure thematically why that should be ?






 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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How can you use a single L for both activating pounce and activating the melee weapons?

You spent it to activate pounce, so you no longer have it to activate a melee weapon.

Going off your interpretation of cumbersome and applying the same logic to normal weapons, it would require you to Surge even with normal weapons!, and to Dash AND surge with cumbersome!

It clearly does not work this way! Therefore you clearly should not apply this ruling to Cumbersome for the exact same reason!

The reason I keep repeating the same argument and quoting the rulebook is because of the simple truth of that fact.

I am not asserting that you can spend the same L multiple times, or even that you have to spend an L to activate after you pounce, except to show how absurd that line of reasoning is!
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Glossary: Pounce wrote:
"Spend C and L to move 3 spaces in a straight line. Then, if you moved 3 spaces, activate a melee weapon with +1 Strength."
pounce wrote:
activate a melee weapon
Seriously, Pounce wrote:
activate
That is the keyword that is bypassing you having to spend an L to activate your melee weapon, you skip it's activation cost of L and skip straight to activating it, because that's the only way it is even usable!

A Cumbersome weapons activation cost is C+L!

Pounce doesn't say you skip it's L cost, it says activation cost!
 
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Ian Gill
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Symmetrical Docking wrote:
How can you use a single L for both activating pounce and activating the melee weapons?

You spent it to activate pounce, so you no longer have it to activate a melee weapon.
Ok, the L used for pounce cant be used to activate the attack allowed by pounce. How do you attack then as part of pounce ?

You cant have it both ways. One minute you say you can attack using pounce but now you say you cant because your L has been used. shake

I have clearly explained that i dont dispute pounce allows you to attack and the L of pounce covers it. Absolutely. No question. As part of pounce you can attack with a standard weapon.
If you want to dispute that, answer the question above.

It is not about the L at all. It is not even about whether you can attack as part of pounce.

The question is
A cumbersome weapon needs an Additional C to be used
Is that covered by the C cost of pounce.

I now give up. You keep repeating the same argument which has no relevance to the actual question.

I should make it absolutely clear, as we were posting at the same time, I DO understand your point about "activate" a melee weapon.
But that the rule about Cumbersome on 215 does state you "MUST Spend both movement AND activation to activate Cumbersome gear". If you have not spent an ADDITIONAL C (as noted on the cards) you cannot activate the cumbersome weapon, pounce doesnt clearly override this.
Hence I keep pointing out the missing C.
Pounce and Cumbersome conflict, I take the rule of death approach.


 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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You keep saying things like "to be used"

Well, the rules don't talk about things that way.


You misunderstand the English, the game doesn't care about "To be used" or "additional costs." That's why it never uses that terminology.


If you want proof, read some of the rulebook quotes above, I happened to underline, bold, and embiggen the relevant term about 40 times and I'm getting tired of it.

I'll refresh you, it cares about the term "Activate"

If you say
Quote:
I have clearly explained that i dont dispute pounce allows you to attack and the L of pounce covers it. Absolutely. No question.
Then since the term attack is NOT used, but Activate IS used for both, in fact by both Pounce and Cumbersome, you are also saying
Posco wrote:
I have clearly explained that i dont dispute pounce allows you to attack with cumbersome questions. Absolutely. No question.
There is nothing "covered by" the pounce, L or C, because that's not how the rules are written. I'm sorry.


I feel I have to re-iterate the first thing I said.
Posco wrote:
However a cumbersome weapon requires an ADDITIONAL C.
No, nowhere does it ever use the term additional. Even if you capitalize it, it is still wrong, false, and unused.

It has a cost for activation just like a normal weapon.

Pounce says it activates a melee weapon, logically this skips the activation cost, which is how you correctly concluded that you don't pay for the activation for a non-cumbersome, normal weapon.

Cumbersome has a larger cost to activate, but since Pounce activates it anyways, it doesn't matter.
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