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Subject: Husband promotion-Protect/raid daughters-Courting Hunters rss

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George Triantafyllidis
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I would like to clarify an issue regarding husband and courting hunter assignments.The relevant rules are:
Quote:
E. PHASE 2, HUNTER ASSIGNMENT (player order)
In player order (A2), each player assigns his unassigned hunters by placing it on a card, either a Biome (hunting), Placard (promotion), or a Daughter Card (raiding or defense). You may assign cubes in any order.
You may place as many cubes on a card as you wish, or leave some unassigned. You may add hunters on multiple cards.

This suggests that a player can send multiple hunters to a daughter to protect or raid

Quote:
E3. HUSBANDS AND PROMOTION TO HUSBAND
Unless promiscuous, you may promote an unassigned hunter to husband status by placing his cube on the husband spot of one of the mature and unmarried Daughter Cards in your tableau. This is a permanent assignment (E4), and his benefits are effective as soon as he matures (B3)

This assignment happens in Phase 2.Does he though become a husband automatically or we wait for potential attacks(Phase 3) and Courtship rolls (Phase 4) after other players possibly assign theirs in the same daughter card

Quote:
Endogamous & Exogamous Courtship. You can also attempt to become a husband of a foreign unmarried daughter, or a married daughter, either foreign or domestic. You may only only assign one courting hunter per daughter. For courtship procedure and success, see G1.



Quote:
G1. COURTSHIPS
You may hunt a mature daughter card in a foreign or domestic tableau just as for a “club” biome, except:
You may assign only one hunter per daughter. He is called a courting hunter.
Courtship Success. To succeed, a courting hunter must both survive combat during Phase 3 (from any rival courting hunters or a jealous husband (F2)), and must achieve a hit by rolling a “1” or “2” in his courtship roll (i.e. special Hunt Roll).


Here it states clearly that there is one courting hunter per daughter.But can more than one members of one's tribe be already in the card(sent in the previous Phase 2 to protect/raid in Phase 3) and simply only one hunter from the same tribe is allowed to roll?
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clemens kremer
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The way I read the rules I would say you can only assign a single cube as a would-be-husband (cubes in other roles do not matter). In case it is your own unmarried daughter the roll automatically is a sucess. In all other cases you need to roll in order to place the cube on the daughter as an immature husband.
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George Triantafyllidis
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Yes but a single would-be-husband could easily mean that a single courting roll(if needed) is permitted among other members of the same tribe present(you assign multiple members to protect or raid but only a single is assigned to make the courting roll-and the rest go home after the conclusion

Is it allowed to 'reinforce' a daughters card?

Are multiple hunters of the same tribe allowed to be in a single daughter's card and only a single one will attempt the roll(if needed)?

In which phase the husband promotion takes place,in Phase 2 or in Phase 4?
 
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Chakroun Karim
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Interesting question. My hunch is that the first rules quote you make is wrong in neanderthal's context and was not amended when ported fr Greenland's rulebook. I cannot check right now but I'd try to find if anything in the rules explains how an attack is resolved when you have multiple cubes on a daughter card.
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Larry Haskell
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ckremer2 wrote:
The way I read the rules I would say you can only assign a single cube as a would-be-husband (cubes in other roles do not matter). In case it is your own unmarried daughter the roll automatically is a sucess. In all other cases you need to roll in order to place the cube on the daughter as an immature husband.


I'm uncertain about the OPs question of whether extra hunters can be assigned a foreign daughter to assist with the attack, but I'm am certain that following a successful courtship roll of a foreign daughter, you place a mature husband, not an immature one, per G1, bullet 5.

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Phil Eklund
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This rule in Part E was intended for Biome Cards, not Daughter Cards. I have changed the wording in the living rules to clarify this:
E. PHASE 2, HUNTER ASSIGNMENT (player order)
• You may place as many cubes on a Biome card as you wish, or leave some unassigned. You are limited to one hunter per Elder slot or Daughter Card. You may add hunters on multiple cards.
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George Triantafyllidis
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Fantastic!Thank you Phil

Could you also please clarify what happens if i want to promote a husband during Phase 2 when there is already a courting hunter in the daughter's card placed by an opponent who plays first.Does the promotion take place automatically in Phase 2 despite the fact that there is a courting hunter there or do we wait for Phase 3 and Phase 4 to resolve a successful promotion.

This can matter (not for the Attack Phase where the order and odds are not affected-the just promoted husband will be immature and in any case will still need to roll a '1') but it might make a difference for the hunt roll if both parties survive the Attack Phase since a husband doesn't roll or in the case that he is not considered yet as husband the turn order and the rule which guarantees automatic courting hunt success for an own unmarried daughter could be decisive
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Rich James
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I would have said a promoted husband in Phase 2 immediately becomes the husband since it was described as a promotion in that phase. But then there's the 4th bullet (in the living rules) under G1:
Quote:
Auto-Success Courtship Rolls. A warrior alpha always succeeds. A hunter courting an unmarried daughter in his own tableau always succeeds but starts immature.

Since this statement is included in the rules for Phase 4, Roll for the Hunt, it looks like it is not an automatic assignment and you have to roll in your turn. Of course, since he always succeeds, maybe it doesn't matter other than to enable a subsequent hunter to remove him (Multiple Suitors).

There are other confusing things in the courtship rules. The 5th bullet, Successful Courtship, says:
Quote:
A success returns the former husband (if any) to the unassigned hunters of whichever player owns the tableau, [...]

So if an Archaic daughter is successfully married to a Neanderthal husband who replaced a Cro-magnon husband, the Cro-magnon husband goes into the Archaic's pool of unassigned hunters (aka as wonderlust)?

Also, I don't understand Promiscuous Courting:
Quote:
Follow all the rules for courting hunters, except a hit in the courtship roll replaces one of the victim’s hunters with a wanderlust hunter of your color, representing your genetic legacy.

Who is the victim here? Say a promiscuous Archaic successfully courts a mature, unmarried Cro-magnon daughter. Does that mean you replace a Cro-magnon hunter (assigned or unassigned) with one of the Archaic's from the dead pool (putting the replaced Cro-magnon in the dead pool)? Does it change things if the daughter was already married (to Cro-magnon or Neanderthal)?
 
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George Triantafyllidis
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Quote:
There are other confusing things in the courtship rules. The 5th bullet, Successful Courtship, says:
Quote:
A success returns the former husband (if any) to the unassigned hunters of whichever player owns the tableau, [...]

So if an Archaic daughter is successfully married to a Neanderthal husband who replaced a Cro-magnon husband, the Cro-magnon husband goes into the Archaic's pool of unassigned hunters (aka as wonderlust)?


Yes.That is clear in the rules and also there is an example in the rules that explains this situation.

Quote:
Also, I don't understand Promiscuous Courting:
Quote:
Follow all the rules for courting hunters, except a hit in the courtship roll replaces one of the victim’s hunters with a wanderlust hunter of your color, representing your genetic legacy.

Who is the victim here? Say a promiscuous Archaic successfully courts a mature, unmarried Cro-magnon daughter. Does that mean you replace a Cro-magnon hunter (assigned or unassigned) with one of the Archaic's from the dead pool (putting the replaced Cro-magnon in the dead pool)? Does it change things if the daughter was already married (to Cro-magnon or Neanderthal)?


Yes.The 'victim' is the player who has ownership of the daughter's card.It doesn't matter if the daughter was married or who is the husband.It is stated in the rules clearly that this doesn't have an impact to the daughter's marital status

The question regarding the timing of the husband promotion and the contested or uncontested nature of the ensued courting hunt remains to be clarified.
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Phil Eklund
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Fabvier wrote:
Fantastic!Thank you Phil

Could you also please clarify what happens if i want to promote a husband during Phase 2 when there is already a courting hunter in the daughter's card placed by an opponent who plays first.Does the promotion take place automatically in Phase 2 despite the fact that there is a courting hunter there or do we wait for Phase 3 and Phase 4 to resolve a successful promotion.

This can matter (not for the Attack Phase where the order and odds are not affected-the just promoted husband will be immature and in any case will still need to roll a '1') but it might make a difference for the hunt roll if both parties survive the Attack Phase since a husband doesn't roll or in the case that he is not considered yet as husband the turn order and the rule which guarantees automatic courting hunt success for an own unmarried daughter could be decisive


In G1 in the Living Rules, I have changed the 3rd bullet to read:
• Auto-Success Courtship Rolls. A warrior alpha always succeeds. A hunter courting an uncontested and unmarried daughter in his own tableau always succeeds but starts immature.

Does this answer the question?
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Martin G
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phileklund wrote:

Does this answer the question?


It'd probably help to spell out the procedure when a 'home' courtship is contested by a visitor.
 
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George Triantafyllidis
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Hm that actually adds some confusion.Let me see if i got this right :

- We assign one hunter for husband per daughter in Phase 2 BUT the promotion actually doesn't take place until all players have a chance to place their courting hunters in the same daughter's card in their respective turn during Phase 2 and then wait for resolution during Phases 3 and 4.Yes or No?

- During Phase 4 you do not automatically succeed in your own daughters courting hunt roll when its your turn unless all other courting hunters rolled and failed or you are an Alpha hunter.Yes or No?
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Simon Skov
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My understanding is as follows:
During phase 2 you can promote hunters to husbands on your unmarried mature daughters. This is immediate, and the husband starts immature.

As for courting your own daughters, if no other player courts the unmarried daughter, this is functionally identical to promoting a husband. Courting your own daughters only makes sense if they already have a husband belonging to another player, or if another player is courting the daughter.

If the daughter has a husband belonging to another player you will not be able promote a husband. Instead you use one of your hunters to court the daughter. If the foreign husband is not killed during combat, you must roll a hit to succeed in your courtship and displace the current husband, and your husband would start mature, as it would when courting in a foreign tableau. If the foreign husband is killed, the daughter is then unmarried and your courtship succeeds automatically, with your husband starting immature, just like if you had promoted him.

It is possbile that a player later in turn order would then get a chance to displace your newly placed husband.
 
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Rich James
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nom_ wrote:
If the foreign husband is killed, the daughter is then unmarried and your courtship succeeds automatically, with your husband starting immature, just like if you had promoted him.

Based on Phil's living rules change mentioned above, I would say that the courtship automatically succeeds only if no other courting hunters are present.

This is starting to make sense to me now. What confused me at first was the auto success rule under G1 for courting daughters in your own tableau. It seemed unnecessary if you assign a husband and it always succeeds in E3. But there is the case where the daughter is already married when you assign your hunter and subsequently (in F2) the husband is killed, leaving her unmarried by the time you get to G1. So that is the situation where you may auto succeed in the courtship.
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Simon Skov
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Yup, I must have skimmed over that change! Good catch.
 
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George Triantafyllidis
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I agree with what you say.The courting hunt sequence is clear -i have no issue to work out the different possible combinations of courting in one's own or in a foreign daughter. Phil's clarification /addition is fine but not relevant with my question

Quote:
Courting your own daughters only makes sense if they already have a husband belonging to another player, or if another player is courting the daughter.


But exactly this 'or if another player is courting the daughter' is my question.What happens if i want to assign a hunter when it is contested

In Rule E3 it is written
Quote:
Unless promiscuous, you may promote an unassigned hunter to husband status by placing his cube on the husband spot of one of the mature and unmarried Daughter Cards in your tableau


It doesn't say 'on a mature,uncontested and unmarried so in theory it allows you to place and promote automatically even if contested.The prerequisite is mature and unmarried only

This is important in the hunting sequence in Phase 4.Because the husband attacks but doesn't hunt while if he is simply a courting hunter he might also roll to hunt and depending on the turn order have the advantage of rolling last,even succeeding to overthrow someone and becoming a mature husband.This needs definitely clarification
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Simon Skov
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Yes, you may promote a husband even though the daughter is already being courted by another player, though as you say in that situation it may be more advantageous to send the hunter courting instead as he may then displace a hunter that succeeded in courting earlier in turn order. At least that seems to be the current state of the rules.

The rule allowing you to court your own daughters was actually added quite late, and that is probably why this area is a bit muddled.
 
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George Triantafyllidis
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If there is a choice between promoting and courting, then going courting is obviously better.If you opt to promote your hunter to husband you secure an immature position by waiting for the other to fail the courting roll(66%),while when you go courting you automatically succeed when the other fails(66%) plus you have a chance to overthrow him if he is successful and earn a mature promotion for an additional 11%. The numbers are different when three hunters and turn order or Alphas are involved but you get the general idea

The question is do the rules allow this choice
 
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Phil Eklund
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Changing the Living Rules to state:

E3. HUSBANDS AND PROMOTION TO HUSBAND
Unless promiscuous, you may promote an unassigned hunter to husband status by placing his cube on the husband spot of one of the mature, uncontested, and unmarried Daughter Cards in your tableau.


G1. COURTSHIPS
• Auto-Success Courtship Rolls. A warrior alpha always succeeds. A hunter courting an uncontested and unmarried daughter in his own tableau always succeeds but starts immature. If the courtship is contested, a hunter in his own tableau must compete for her hand like everyone else, with no “home court” advantage.
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Simon Skov
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If two players are courting the same daughter, and the the first player fails but is not killed, is the daughter still considered to be contested when it is time for the second player to attempt courtship?
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Rich James
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See Multiple Suitors under G1. Courtship. Each one gets to courtship roll. The last successful one is the husband.
 
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Simon Skov
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I'm afraid that doesn't really answer the question. The question is, do the failed suitors go home immediately, or do they stay on the daughter card until everyone has finished courting, thus making her still contested when it is the last players turn to roll for courtship?
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Phil Eklund
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To clarify this, I added a phrase to G1:
• Multiple Suitors. If there are multiple courting hunters, each rolls for success in player order, with the last successful suitor as the new husband and the others going home unrequited after everyone has finished courting her.
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George Triantafyllidis
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Does this mean that if i am the last courting hunter to roll in my own daughter's card and the others have already failed but not killed i still need to roll a success in order to promote my hunter to husband?
 
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Simon Skov
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Yes, it does. Be careful with your wording though; in that case you would not be promoting a hunter to husband, but rather courting a daughter in your own tableau.
Promoting a hunter to husband is done in phase 2, requires only that the daughter is mature and unmarried. Results in an immature husband.
In yor example, when the other hunters have failed, but the daughter is still contested, courtship success would result in a mature husband.
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