Jeffrey Speer
United States
Fargo
North Dakota
flag msg tools
Gravity Falls
badge
Remember, reality is an illusion, the universe is a hologram, buy gold, bye!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We have had a discussion a few times now in my group about Dracula's card "Plotting" - specifically how it can be used to cancel their basic attack cards. Their argument boils down to "it's too powerful, it goes off, you're screwed the rest of the combat"

My impression is that they're starting combat with vampires or Dracula without being sufficiently equipped and thus they die - he isn't a pushvover like he is in earlier versions of the game.

Is there anything I could tell them that should make it easier for this version of the game's combat? Dracula is a little less predictable as you aren't sure what he will open with - in our games, they usually try to open with a weapon, and then I've got strength which takes it away from them. After that I've got plotting which usually goes off, and then follow that up with a good raking with claws because I can cancel their dodge.

Perhaps I am playing something incorrectly here. Comments or clarifications?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
umbral Aeronaut
United States
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That all sounds just about right. Early-game combat with one hunter versus Dracula should feel dangerous, to contrast with how rough it is in 3rd edition when Dracula has to fight multiple Knife-wielding Hunters at once. It's noteworthy to point out that if they are trying to Escape during the same round that Dracula is Plotting, it's a very deliberate interaction that Escape cancels out Plot (thus preventing Dracula from stopping them out of nowhere in the exact same round).

It sounds as though your Hunters are being a little too arrogant in the early phases of the game. They should be properly wary of Dracula unless they can bring a lot of combat items and/or well-equipped buddies into a fight. Having one Rifle doesn't necessarily make you a vampire killer... with Strength and Mesmerize particularly solitary Hunters should be more careful in this edition which is a good thing.

I think the really scary thing for an unequipped Hunter who stumbles into Dracula is the Mesmerize -> Plotting combo (which defeats your initial Escape, and then cancels the Dodge you throw in a blind panic afterwards trying to avoid the bite) and now you are trapped in a dangerous feedback loop of damage followed by a Bite at Dracula's leisure... for example, if Dracula chooses to start combat adjacent to a Hunter and hope they stumble into him in the first night. I haven't tried this tactic yet but it's something that feels like it needs to be tested.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeffrey Speer
United States
Fargo
North Dakota
flag msg tools
Gravity Falls
badge
Remember, reality is an illusion, the universe is a hologram, buy gold, bye!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
But if Plotting went off in an earlier round, so it's sitting face up ready to be used in a later round, there's nothing they can do about it, right?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thibault Nguyen
France
Paris
IDF
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi,
well I played my three first games of this 3rd edition last week-end, and I as Dracula tried to stay hidden as long as possible.

So each time I had to fight a hunter he had plenty of items and I hardly defeated 3 hunters in three games. I find the game quite hard for the Count, but I guess I should have tried to defeat a lone hunter asap...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel Stair
United States
Macon Area
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
drago74 wrote:
Hi,
well I played my three first games of this 3rd edition last week-end, and I as Dracula tried to stay hidden as long as possible.

So each time I had to fight a hunter he had plenty of items and I hardly defeated 3 hunters in three games. I find the game quite hard for the Count, but I guess I should have tried to defeat a lone hunter asap...
Ive played 4 times and Dracula has won every time the hunters where 2 steps behind me in the last game. I have decided to remove the Rumor tokens.

I have it hard to play a 2 player game because they feel like they know where Dracula is and moves every hunter toward there BUT because they don't know where Dracula is they are missing the other spots to move and find him.
The game is great but i feel with more people playing the Hunters they will be with out the input from every player.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thibault Nguyen
France
Paris
IDF
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Well we found the 2-players game not so optimal for hunters: one player has to manage all their cards and he often forgets to play the right event at the right time.

I played the three games with almost different players each time. I was always Dracula and I guess I did not play him very well... soblue
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randal Divinski
United States
Natick
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kaworu17 wrote:
We have had a discussion a few times now in my group about Dracula's card "Plotting" - specifically how it can be used to cancel their basic attack cards. Their argument boils down to "it's too powerful, it goes off, you're screwed the rest of the combat"...

Perhaps I am playing something incorrectly here. Comments or clarifications?
Well PLOTTING can be used to cancel ONE OF their basic combat cards (Dodge, Punch, Escape). Plotting sits face up on the table, but in order to use it -- to counter Dodge for instance -- you have to turn it face down. At that point, Plotting has been expended and is no longer available.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeffrey Speer
United States
Fargo
North Dakota
flag msg tools
Gravity Falls
badge
Remember, reality is an illusion, the universe is a hologram, buy gold, bye!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
randiv wrote:
Kaworu17 wrote:
We have had a discussion a few times now in my group about Dracula's card "Plotting" - specifically how it can be used to cancel their basic attack cards. Their argument boils down to "it's too powerful, it goes off, you're screwed the rest of the combat"...

Perhaps I am playing something incorrectly here. Comments or clarifications?
Well PLOTTING can be used to cancel ONE OF their basic combat cards (Dodge, Punch, Escape). Plotting sits face up on the table, but in order to use it -- to counter Dodge for instance -- you have to turn it face down. At that point, Plotting has been expended and is no longer available.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. But the fact they are usually under-equipped and they come up on Plotting doesn't do them any favors as they are left with basic actions. Strength takes their weaponry.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thibault Nguyen
France
Paris
IDF
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I have just made a combat matrix table (submitted to BGG in files section).

You can have a look here :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byvbz2qRhlsdTExrMUVXTDZSSmM...

Please feel free to give any feedback.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Turner
United Kingdom
Farnham
Surrey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
To clarify, can plotting be used to cancel a card on the turn it is played?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
H-B-G
United Kingdom
Halesowen
West Midlands
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MrMT wrote:
To clarify, can plotting be used to cancel a card on the turn it is played?
I'm not sure but surely it would be pointless anyway. Plotting can only cancel Punch, Dodge or Escape played by the engaged hunter. If Punch or Escape were played in the same round, they cancel Plotting so the point is moot. If Dodge is played, it doesn't do anything anyway, so is not worth cancelling.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Turner
United Kingdom
Farnham
Surrey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaveD wrote:
MrMT wrote:
To clarify, can plotting be used to cancel a card on the turn it is played?
I'm not sure but surely it would be pointless anyway. Plotting can only cancel Punch, Dodge or Escape played by the engaged hunter. If Punch or Escape were played in the same round, they cancel Plotting so the point is moot. If Dodge is played, it doesn't do anything anyway, so is not worth cancelling.
Good point. But then, in another thread there was a point about plotting being able to do its thing before combat icons are revealed...

Which would imply it can cancel those cards. But it does seem to me that you might need to get plotting on the table first before you can use that flip ability.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeffrey Speer
United States
Fargo
North Dakota
flag msg tools
Gravity Falls
badge
Remember, reality is an illusion, the universe is a hologram, buy gold, bye!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Example:

You play plotting, they play rifle.

Plotting isn't cancelled, so it goes onto the table face up. Dracula takes some damage from the rifle.

Next, you play claws, and they play Dodge.

Dracula then flips the previously played Plotting to cancel the dodge. The hunter gets mauled by the claws.

Dracula plays Strength, hunter plays Rifle. The rifle is stolen and the hunter takes damage.

And so it goes...

This is my understanding of it, is this correct?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
H-B-G
United Kingdom
Halesowen
West Midlands
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MrMT wrote:
DaveD wrote:
MrMT wrote:
To clarify, can plotting be used to cancel a card on the turn it is played?
I'm not sure but surely it would be pointless anyway. Plotting can only cancel Punch, Dodge or Escape played by the engaged hunter. If Punch or Escape were played in the same round, they cancel Plotting so the point is moot. If Dodge is played, it doesn't do anything anyway, so is not worth cancelling.
Good point. But then, in another thread there was a point about plotting being able to do its thing before combat icons are revealed...

Which would imply it can cancel those cards. But it does seem to me that you might need to get plotting on the table first before you can use that flip ability.
By my reading Plotting's cancel effect is not available until the card is resolved in step 5 of the combat round it is played in, by which time it is too late to cancel the hunter card played that round (except for dodge which is pointless). Once the card is in play it can certainly cancel cards, before icons are compared in later rounds.

Edit: Thinking about it more, this must be the case as otherwise, the plotting icon on Punch and Escape would be pointless, Dracula would always choose to cancel those cards if they were played against plotting as if he did not plotting would be cancelled.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Turner
United Kingdom
Farnham
Surrey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaveD wrote:
Thinking about it more, this must be the case as otherwise, the plotting icon on Punch and Escape would be pointless, Dracula would always choose to cancel those cards if they were played against plotting as if he did not plotting would be cancelled.
I agree. Came to much the same conclusion myself.

So plotting is actually not as good as it might first appear. It's more of a gamble, seeing as hunter has so many options to cancel it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeffrey Speer
United States
Fargo
North Dakota
flag msg tools
Gravity Falls
badge
Remember, reality is an illusion, the universe is a hologram, buy gold, bye!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
How many options? 2 or 3?

Punch and Pistol. Am I missing another?

Escape, I guess, but that's pointless for the hunter.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Truce Idares
South Africa
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
drago74 wrote:
I have just made a combat matrix table (submitted to BGG in files section).

You can have a look here :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byvbz2qRhlsdTExrMUVXTDZSSmM...

Please feel free to give any feedback.
Wow this is helpful, thank you!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Turner
United Kingdom
Farnham
Surrey
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
drago74 wrote:
I have just made a combat matrix table (submitted to BGG in files section).

You can have a look here :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byvbz2qRhlsdTExrMUVXTDZSSmM...

Please feel free to give any feedback.
This is an interesting chart. At first glance, it does look like the hunters have slightly more likelihood to come out top in combat... Dracula's big gambit is mesmerize plus fangs, but there are so many ways for that to go wrong.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls