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Subject: Flower Power + Missile Envy + War rss

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Angus Lee
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Flower Power is in effect when US player plays Missile Envy. USSR player gives a War card (e.g. Brush War) to US player, the event happens. Does USSR player get 2 VPs?

On a previous thread way back in 2009 (https://boardgamegeek.com/article/4416760#4416760) the general consensus is yes. We have that situation arises in a tournament game and would like some references to the official source. Thank you.
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Ben Kyo
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I don't understand why there would be any doubt about the USSR gaining 2VP?
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Kristian Thy
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Gunulfr ok Øgotr ok Aslakr ok Rolfr resþu sten þænsi æftir Ful, felaga sin, ær warþ ... døþr, þa kunungar barþusk.
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Agreed. I'd love to the hear argument why the USSR wouldn't get the 2 VP.

Missile Envy says the cards are "exchanged", so the card from the USSR is clearly going into the US hand. Then the event happens, and as per Flower Power the card is "used for Operations or an Event" so 2 VP are awarded.
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Angus Lee
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My opponent says the US player is not playing the card, but the event is just triggered. So without playing the card, Flower Power does not kick in.
 
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Ben Kyo
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So, according to your opponent, the US is doing nothing in their AR? I think you might have trouble finding official clarification if no-one has ever seen need to seek official clarification for this point. I'm no expert on TS FAQs, but I'd be surprised if this were one.
 
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Michael Valentine

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anguslee wrote:
My opponent says the US player is not playing the card, but the event is just triggered.
If your opponent agrees that you pick where the Brush War takes place, then he can argue that he's not the one "playing" the card which is in his hand and used to trigger the event.

Seriously though, your opponent's argument seems frivolous to me.
 
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Angus Lee
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Benkyo wrote:
So, according to your opponent, the US is doing nothing in their AR?
The US player "plays" the Missile Envy card for its event in his AR. Of course it is not doing nothing.
 
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Angus Lee
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MichaelVal wrote:
anguslee wrote:
My opponent says the US player is not playing the card, but the event is just triggered.
If your opponent agrees that you pick where the Brush War takes place, then he can argue that he's not the one "playing" the card which is in his hand and used to trigger the event.

Seriously though, your opponent's argument seems frivolous to me.
Thanks for the support and I will use this point to reason with him.
 
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Ben Kyo
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anguslee wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
So, according to your opponent, the US is doing nothing in their AR?
The US player "plays" the Missile Envy card for its event in his AR. Of course it is not doing nothing.
My argument is the same as MichaelVal's. Yes, the US player has played Missile Envy, and as a result cards are swapped and the USSR will have to take a 2 OP AR next round. The question remains as to what the US is doing in their AR. How will the board state be affected. The obvious answer is "playing Bush War". Your opponent is arguing "nothing", which is silly.
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Snooze Fest
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To play Devil's Advocate ...

The US played Missile Envy. As a result, the event on the Brush War card was triggered. The point of the "exchange" is so that ME ends up in the opponent's hand, while BW ends up on the table -- ME was still the card actually played. And sure, BW is triggered "as if" the US player played it -- so US chooses the target. But "as if" in not the same as actually playing it. Thus, no +2VP for USSR.
 
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Kristian Thy
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Snooze, you're essentially arguing that "as if" should not be interpreted to mean "as if". That's absurd.

Anyway, as we know this is only a problem because the original authors of the cards were lazy when wording them. Luckily a local hero has made a completely unambiguous set of cards that should resolve this issue. So let's see what his cards say:

Quote:
#59 Flower Power: For the rest of the game, whenever the US plays a War card for its event or operations, the USSR receives 2 VPs if the event can occur. (The War cards are Arab-Israeli War, Brush War, Indo-Pakistani War, Iran-Iraq War, and Korean War.)

FAQ entry: Neutral War cards played for operations still trigger this effect. Sending a War card to space doesn’t trigger this effect.
Quote:
#49 Missile Envy: Your opponent chooses a card in his or her hand having the highest operations value among those cards, and discards that card. If it’s an opponent-associated card, conduct operations with that card. (Its event doesn’t occur.) Otherwise, its event occurs.

Put this card into your opponent’s hand. While it remains there, when your opponent takes an action round, they must play this card for operations if they can legally do so.
Hm. Doesn't seem to make much difference to me.
 
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Michael Valentine

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snoozefest wrote:
The point of the "exchange" is so that ME ends up in the opponent's hand, while BW ends up on the table -- ME was still the card actually played.
Your argument does violence to the meaning of the word "exchange" to say that the person who played ME did not receive BW in exchange.

>ex·change
>iksˈCHānj/
>verb
>verb: exchange; 3rd person present: exchanges; past tense: exchanged; past participle: exchanged; gerund or present participle: exchanging
>1. give something and receive something of the same kind in return. (emphasis added)

The word "exchange" means cards switched hands. The point of the exchange is that ME goes to opponent and opponent's card goes to player who played ME; it does not go straight to the table. That player, as mandated by rule, then plays the card for ops or event. The event does not just happen as shown by the fact that the original player is the one who decides how the event is played. The original player played ME, received BW in exchange, and then played BW for the event while FP was in effect. Thus, 2 vps to the Soviets.
 
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Snooze Fest
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To be fair, I'm only playing Devil's Advocate. I actually believe USSR would get +2 VP.

Back to Devil mode ...

When I play a card, I put it on the table, read it, and do what it says. So in the exchange, my played card goes to USSR's hand and their Brush War goes to the table. The point being, ME is in their hand. ME wasn't in my hand, it was on the table. Of course, I don't remember a specific definition of "play" as putting on the table or whatever, but it seems kind of natural. Anyway, one could argue that ME was played, and the rest (exchanging cards, triggering BW event) is simply a result of the original ME event -- not requiring playing of another card. I mean, when USSR plays a US card, isn't the event triggered as if the US had played it, without the US actually having played the card? So couldn't this be interpreted similarly, with the event triggering from the USSR's hand (and the card going straight to the discard pile)?

/devil/
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Michael Valentine

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I don't think there can only be one card "played" in a round. The US had ME and played it. They got BW in exchange and then played BW. If UN is used simultaneously with another card, then both cards were played.
 
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UN Intervention says to play it along with another card. ME is different. It would be crystal clear if ME said something like "exchange cards .... If it is the opponent's card, play for ops without triggering the event. Otherwise, play the card for the event." But it doesn't. It just says stuff about the event triggering, or using the ops (no event) ... nothing at all about playing the card.

Heck, I think I've talked myself over to the other side!
 
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Ananda Gupta
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Q: Flower Power is in effect when US player plays Missile Envy. USSR player gives a War card (e.g. Brush War) to US player, the event happens. Does USSR player get 2 VPs?

Ruling: YES
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Angus Lee
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ASGupta wrote:
Q: Flower Power is in effect when US player plays Missile Envy. USSR player gives a War card (e.g. Brush War) to US player, the event happens. Does USSR player get 2 VPs?

Ruling: YES
Thank you very much, Mr. Gupta, for the ruling clarification!
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Richard Woods
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What about when the USSR gives a USSR-associated War card to the US player, and the US player uses the operations value? Does the USSR get 2 VP in that case as well?
 
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Ben Kyo
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rrwoods wrote:
What about when the USSR gives a USSR-associated War card to the US player, and the US player uses the operations value? Does the USSR get 2 VP in that case as well?
Of course.
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Richard Woods
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ASGupta wrote:
Q: Flower Power is in effect when US player plays Missile Envy. USSR player gives a War card (e.g. Brush War) to US player, the event happens. Does USSR player get 2 VPs?

Ruling: YES
Does this same ruling apply to Star Wars selecting a War card with Flower Power in effect?
 
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Michael Kiefte
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rrwoods wrote:
ASGupta wrote:
Q: Flower Power is in effect when US player plays Missile Envy. USSR player gives a War card (e.g. Brush War) to US player, the event happens. Does USSR player get 2 VPs?

Ruling: YES
Does this same ruling apply to Star Wars selecting a War card with Flower Power in effect?
Why wouldn't it?
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Richard Woods
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mkiefte wrote:
rrwoods wrote:
ASGupta wrote:
Q: Flower Power is in effect when US player plays Missile Envy. USSR player gives a War card (e.g. Brush War) to US player, the event happens. Does USSR player get 2 VPs?

Ruling: YES
Does this same ruling apply to Star Wars selecting a War card with Flower Power in effect?
Why wouldn't it?
I could come up with any number of reasons why it wouldn't; I could come up with any number of reasons why it would. None of those matter in actual play though; what does matter (and what I want to know) is the designer's intent.
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Tong Chi Wai
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I'm Angus' opponent player. Thanks for your opinions and I'd like to play the game right. Thanks a lot for the official reply.
 
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