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Subject: Two rules questions (Butcher) rss

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Matteo Battarra
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Yesterday I did my year 4 Butcher showdown…
soblue
Even with some increased armor from two events, he turned my "meat shield" survivors into a fine red mist.

A couple of rules I'd like to check:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

- The Berserk trait (draws 2 AI cards each turn). Is it correct to draw the first card, resolve it in full and then draw the second?
Or should I draw them at the same time and decide the resolution order?

- After killing the first survivor, the butcher adds a "Bleed 1" effect to his attacks. Does it stack on any Bleed the attack already has?
I ruled a bit in my favor just adding Bleed 1 to attacks without it whistle (Useless, a constant cycling of Hack City + Lantern Frenzy killed everybody).
 
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Jeroen F
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MatBat wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

- The Berserk trait (draws 2 AI cards each turn). Is it correct to draw the first card, resolve it in full and then draw the second?
That's how I played it. I treated it like AI cards that tell you to draw a new AI at the end.

MatBat wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

- After killing the first survivor, the butcher adds a "Bleed 1" effect to his attacks. Does it stack on any Bleed the attack already has?
Again, this is how I played it. After damage effects fire once if the requirement was met, they do not trigger (for example) for each damage. So they do not stack I believe.

PS
I'm going to confess I reset my first butcher showdown after being slaughtered, and actually managed to win the second time around with taking two casualties. (I felt like we were throwing badly, and was curious to see if we could win at all, which seems confirmed).
 
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John
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The first is correct, but I see no reason why Bleed 1 + Bleed 1 would not become Bleed 2 (which does exist already).
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sam newman

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the way i played it was as follows...


draw resolve ai then draw another and resolve it, However the butcher may only move once per turn he may attack 2x using 2 ai cards. Not sure if this is the correct way but it seemed to make the most sense.

The bleeds stack but you only take 1 instance of the bleeds per attack outcome, so if you get hit on an attack you get 2 bleeds and not per hit of the attack.


hes very tough, slaughtered my 4 survivors.
 
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Matteo Battarra
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I have to check this evening to see if there is a stacking condition ruling at the end of the manual.

The first Nemesis is brutal: I chose some sacrificial pawns and an old survivor who lost a leg in a lion hunt. Yet, I hoped to have some fighting chances thanks to some Shrine+Light in the sky armor bonus.

In the first turns I managed to knock the butcher down and get 5 wounds in, but after the first dead guy it all went downhill (some brutal AI combos, my guys missing most of the attacks, two attacks bouncing off…)

The last survivor was the one-legged one. The butcher, appreciating balance in life, proceeded to chop off the remaining leg and finished him with a decapitation. yuk

Sorry for the OT, I can't stop bragging about the game!
 
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Chengkai Yang
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Odd, we've thrown our A team at him every time and beat him on 3 occasions. He didn't seem that terrible. Then again we lucked out and had a frenzy potion and surge every time. Surging survivors can really go to town on him if your lucky and don't draw a trap. Grease evasion fighting has been pretty damn successful as well, rawhide + grease is +2 evasion. Last go around we lucked out and we had some tall grass so +4 evasion on his 4+ attacks means he's swinging at 8+ to hit. That goes a long way to not getting killed.
 
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Blaine French

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draxx01 wrote:
Then again we lucked out and had a frenzy potion and surge every time.
Not saying your doing it wrong, but frenzy doesn't let you use survival so no surge on the frenzied characters. I only bring it up because I caught myself doing it wrong in a solo game.
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Phoenix Bird
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Well the card wording is literally +1 or +2.

When something adds +1 speed you roll that die when you roll your other dice. If something adds +1 damage your add it to the total amount of damage, 3 damage becomes 4 damage.

Numerical values for AI cards like the Rawhide Headband and Cat Eye Circlet all take place together. You draw two or three cards from the AI deck all at once. You don’t draw one, decide what to do with it and then draw another one.

So when I am told to draw +1 A.I. cards I draw two cards. I keep them separate and unrevealed and work through them in order.

If the game wanted you to draw one card. Resolve it and then draw a second card there would be much better ways of expressing that than +1.


Phoenix
 
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Robert Teves II
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
So when I am told to draw +1 A.I. cards I draw two cards. I keep them separate and unrevealed and work through them in order.

If the game wanted you to draw one card. Resolve it and then draw a second card there would be much better ways of expressing that than +1.


Phoenix
Oh boy, this again.



Quote:
Playing Moods & Traits
If an AI card contains an action to draw AI, complete and applicable actions on the current AI card before drawing and playing a new AI card.
 
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Phoenix Bird
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Do you want to point out where Berserk says “Draw AI.” Maybe you misremembered it?

It doesn’t. Kick does. Embrace the Pain Does. Lantern Frenzy does. Forbidden Light does.

But Berserk doesn’t contain the Draw AI instruction does it. It says +1 AI.

“Draw AI” Is a specific term defined in the glossary. +X AI sadly isn’t.

If Berserk said “At the end of the Monster’s turn “Draw AI” like the Phoenix Trait Zeal says perform basic action then these would be separate. But it doesn’t. It says +1, meaning 2.

Phoenix

But well done for the Yes Minister reference.
 
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It says nowhere that you can play them in any order you want, so I would not do that. Draw 2 AI cards, play them in order. If you are down to 1 AI card, Draw AI would happen twice, but the 2nd time would revert to basic action due to lack of AI cards.
 
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Lachlan Blackmore
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Well the card wording is literally +1 or +2.

When something adds +1 speed you roll that die when you roll your other dice. If something adds +1 damage your add it to the total amount of damage, 3 damage becomes 4 damage.

Numerical values for AI cards like the Rawhide Headband and Cat Eye Circlet all take place together. You draw two or three cards from the AI deck all at once. You don’t draw one, decide what to do with it and then draw another one.

So when I am told to draw +1 A.I. cards I draw two cards. I keep them separate and unrevealed and work through them in order.

If the game wanted you to draw one card. Resolve it and then draw a second card there would be much better ways of expressing that than +1.


Phoenix
Am I missing something? What difference does this make? Either way you are resolving two cards in order.
 
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soupness wrote:
Phoenix_Bird wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Well the card wording is literally +1 or +2.

When something adds +1 speed you roll that die when you roll your other dice. If something adds +1 damage your add it to the total amount of damage, 3 damage becomes 4 damage.

Numerical values for AI cards like the Rawhide Headband and Cat Eye Circlet all take place together. You draw two or three cards from the AI deck all at once. You don’t draw one, decide what to do with it and then draw another one.

So when I am told to draw +1 A.I. cards I draw two cards. I keep them separate and unrevealed and work through them in order.

If the game wanted you to draw one card. Resolve it and then draw a second card there would be much better ways of expressing that than +1.


Phoenix
Am I missing something? What difference does this make? Either way you are resolving two cards in order.
It makes a big difference. Drawing 2 AI at once means that you can see and plan for both AI cards. If you don't know what's coming next, you don't know where to go if you dash, or if you should dodge this attack or save it for the next attack. Also, if he draws 2 AI and they are the last AI, you can potentially surge and kill him before he finishes his attack.
 
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Jefferson Bauersfeld
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MatBat wrote:
Yesterday I did my year 4 Butcher showdown…
soblue
Even with some increased armor from two events, he turned my "meat shield" survivors into a fine red mist.

A couple of rules I'd like to check:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

- The Berserk trait (draws 2 AI cards each turn). Is it correct to draw the first card, resolve it in full and then draw the second?
Or should I draw them at the same time and decide the resolution order?

- After killing the first survivor, the butcher adds a "Bleed 1" effect to his attacks. Does it stack on any Bleed the attack already has?
I ruled a bit in my favor just adding Bleed 1 to attacks without it whistle (Useless, a constant cycling of Hack City + Lantern Frenzy killed everybody).
Seeing no rule to the contrary, I played the two AI cards like multiple HL cards: you reveal all and choose the order. I don't see anything to say that the AI cards are played immediately upon drawing one at a time or that upon drawing two they are played in order. For the AI cards that say draw another one, these effects are almost always after at least some part of the card has already resolved, usually the attack.

Bleed 1 stacks. The cards will just have "Bleed 1. Bleed 1." for instance.
 
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Jefferson Bauersfeld
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ELicious wrote:
It makes a big difference. Drawing 2 AI at once means that you can see and plan for both AI cards. If you don't know what's coming next, you don't know where to go if you dash, or if you should dodge this attack or save it for the next attack. Also, if he draws 2 AI and they are the last AI, you can potentially surge and kill him before he finishes his attack.
I'm confused how you would use surge to kill him before he finishes his attack. You can only use activation on your turn as far as I know.
 
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Joseph Nudi
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Jbaue003 wrote:
MatBat wrote:
Yesterday I did my year 4 Butcher showdown…
soblue
Even with some increased armor from two events, he turned my "meat shield" survivors into a fine red mist.

A couple of rules I'd like to check:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

- The Berserk trait (draws 2 AI cards each turn). Is it correct to draw the first card, resolve it in full and then draw the second?
Or should I draw them at the same time and decide the resolution order?

- After killing the first survivor, the butcher adds a "Bleed 1" effect to his attacks. Does it stack on any Bleed the attack already has?
I ruled a bit in my favor just adding Bleed 1 to attacks without it whistle (Useless, a constant cycling of Hack City + Lantern Frenzy killed everybody).
Seeing no rule to the contrary, I played the two AI cards like multiple HL cards: you reveal all and choose the order. I don't see anything to say that the AI cards are played immediately upon drawing one at a time. For the AI cards that say draw another one, these effects are almost always after at least some part of the card has already resolved, usually the attack.

Bleed 1 stacks. The cards will just have "Bleed 1. Bleed 1." for instance.
I believe that Robert has the best interpretation on AI draws, but as you can see from the debate on this issue there is some question about Draw AI vs +X AI.

We draw and complete them in order blind, but I believe any interpretation will work in this case until we get something official.
 
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Joseph Nudi
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Jbaue003 wrote:
ELicious wrote:
It makes a big difference. Drawing 2 AI at once means that you can see and plan for both AI cards. If you don't know what's coming next, you don't know where to go if you dash, or if you should dodge this attack or save it for the next attack. Also, if he draws 2 AI and they are the last AI, you can potentially surge and kill him before he finishes his attack.
I'm confused how you would use surge to kill him before he finishes his attack. You can only use activation on your turn as far as I know.
Actually, you can surge on the monster's turn, especially during flows. There is another thread somewhere with great detail on when you can and can't surge (really just breaking down the rulebook's core on the same).

So if a monster has flows in the AI it is processing you can actually swing at that. The same is true of dashing and all other survival abilities. This lets you escape some attacks by dashing (where move happens first, flow, then attack), but not others where (even if you dashed) the flow happens followed by "move and attack" together. You can't escape those if you're still in range.
 
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Jefferson Bauersfeld
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Blueskew wrote:
Actually, you can surge on the monster's turn, especially during flows. There is another thread somewhere with great detail on when you can and can't surge (really just breaking down the rulebook's core on the same).

So if a monster has flows in the AI it is processing you can actually swing at that. The same is true of dashing and all other survival abilities. This lets you escape some attacks by dashing (where move happens first, flow, then attack), but not others where (even if you dashed) the flow happens followed by "move and attack" together. You can't escape those if you're still in range.
I'm unfamiliar with the term flow and don't have the rulebook in front of me right now. I know you can use survival actions on the monster's turn, but I didn't think you would be able to use, for example, the extra activation because it isn't your turn. Are flows a game concept that lets you use movements and activations on the monster's turn?
 
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Jefferson Bauersfeld
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Blueskew wrote:
Jbaue003 wrote:
MatBat wrote:
Yesterday I did my year 4 Butcher showdown…
soblue
Even with some increased armor from two events, he turned my "meat shield" survivors into a fine red mist.

A couple of rules I'd like to check:

Spoiler (click to reveal)

- The Berserk trait (draws 2 AI cards each turn). Is it correct to draw the first card, resolve it in full and then draw the second?
Or should I draw them at the same time and decide the resolution order?

- After killing the first survivor, the butcher adds a "Bleed 1" effect to his attacks. Does it stack on any Bleed the attack already has?
I ruled a bit in my favor just adding Bleed 1 to attacks without it whistle (Useless, a constant cycling of Hack City + Lantern Frenzy killed everybody).
Seeing no rule to the contrary, I played the two AI cards like multiple HL cards: you reveal all and choose the order. I don't see anything to say that the AI cards are played immediately upon drawing one at a time. For the AI cards that say draw another one, these effects are almost always after at least some part of the card has already resolved, usually the attack.

Bleed 1 stacks. The cards will just have "Bleed 1. Bleed 1." for instance.
I believe that Robert has the best interpretation on AI draws, but as you can see from the debate on this issue there is some question about Draw AI vs +X AI.

We draw and complete them in order blind, but I believe any interpretation will work in this case until we get something official.
I agree with you that it is definitely far from explict what we should do in this case.
 
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Jbaue003 wrote:
Blueskew wrote:
Actually, you can surge on the monster's turn, especially during flows. There is another thread somewhere with great detail on when you can and can't surge (really just breaking down the rulebook's core on the same).

So if a monster has flows in the AI it is processing you can actually swing at that. The same is true of dashing and all other survival abilities. This lets you escape some attacks by dashing (where move happens first, flow, then attack), but not others where (even if you dashed) the flow happens followed by "move and attack" together. You can't escape those if you're still in range.
I'm unfamiliar with the term flow and don't have the rulebook in front of me right now. I know you can use survival actions on the monster's turn, but I didn't think you would be able to use, for example, the extra activation because it isn't your turn. Are flows a game concept that lets you use movements and activations on the monster's turn?
Flows are the downward pointing arrows on AI cards between AI actions. They allow for survival opportunities.
 
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Jefferson Bauersfeld
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dorktron2000 wrote:
Jbaue003 wrote:
Blueskew wrote:
Actually, you can surge on the monster's turn, especially during flows. There is another thread somewhere with great detail on when you can and can't surge (really just breaking down the rulebook's core on the same).

So if a monster has flows in the AI it is processing you can actually swing at that. The same is true of dashing and all other survival abilities. This lets you escape some attacks by dashing (where move happens first, flow, then attack), but not others where (even if you dashed) the flow happens followed by "move and attack" together. You can't escape those if you're still in range.
I'm unfamiliar with the term flow and don't have the rulebook in front of me right now. I know you can use survival actions on the monster's turn, but I didn't think you would be able to use, for example, the extra activation because it isn't your turn. Are flows a game concept that lets you use movements and activations on the monster's turn?
Flows are the downward pointing arrows on AI cards between AI actions. They allow for survival opportunities.
Oh, nice. Must have missed that in the rules. Not sure if such an opportunity has come up yet, but I will keep on the lookout for potential ways to exploit these flows.
 
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Joseph Nudi
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Jbaue003 wrote:
dorktron2000 wrote:
Jbaue003 wrote:
Blueskew wrote:
Actually, you can surge on the monster's turn, especially during flows. There is another thread somewhere with great detail on when you can and can't surge (really just breaking down the rulebook's core on the same).

So if a monster has flows in the AI it is processing you can actually swing at that. The same is true of dashing and all other survival abilities. This lets you escape some attacks by dashing (where move happens first, flow, then attack), but not others where (even if you dashed) the flow happens followed by "move and attack" together. You can't escape those if you're still in range.
I'm unfamiliar with the term flow and don't have the rulebook in front of me right now. I know you can use survival actions on the monster's turn, but I didn't think you would be able to use, for example, the extra activation because it isn't your turn. Are flows a game concept that lets you use movements and activations on the monster's turn?
Flows are the downward pointing arrows on AI cards between AI actions. They allow for survival opportunities.
Oh, nice. Must have missed that in the rules. Not sure if such an opportunity has come up yet, but I will keep on the lookout for potential ways to exploit these flows.
Not to worry. We didn't know about flows until halfway through our first settlement ourselves. It makes certain cards by certain Monsters much more manageable. p. 52 has some details.

We also used to apply severe injury rolls for each damage above that which the armor could handle (went 5 damage over your armor, roll 5 times on the severe/trauma table). Folks on the boards got us straightened out though (and now we're not terrified of taking on level 2 or 3 monsters anymore).

The rulebook is actually pretty good, but a bit much to take in with the details until you've got some games under your belt (and even after that as we revert to some old habits periodically by accident due to forgetfulness).
 
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Jefferson Bauersfeld
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Blueskew wrote:
Jbaue003 wrote:
dorktron2000 wrote:
Jbaue003 wrote:
Blueskew wrote:
Actually, you can surge on the monster's turn, especially during flows. There is another thread somewhere with great detail on when you can and can't surge (really just breaking down the rulebook's core on the same).

So if a monster has flows in the AI it is processing you can actually swing at that. The same is true of dashing and all other survival abilities. This lets you escape some attacks by dashing (where move happens first, flow, then attack), but not others where (even if you dashed) the flow happens followed by "move and attack" together. You can't escape those if you're still in range.
I'm unfamiliar with the term flow and don't have the rulebook in front of me right now. I know you can use survival actions on the monster's turn, but I didn't think you would be able to use, for example, the extra activation because it isn't your turn. Are flows a game concept that lets you use movements and activations on the monster's turn?
Flows are the downward pointing arrows on AI cards between AI actions. They allow for survival opportunities.
Oh, nice. Must have missed that in the rules. Not sure if such an opportunity has come up yet, but I will keep on the lookout for potential ways to exploit these flows.
Not to worry. We didn't know about flows until halfway through our first settlement ourselves. It makes certain cards by certain Monsters much more manageable. p. 52 has some details.

We also used to apply severe injury rolls for each damage above that which the armor could handle (went 5 damage over your armor, roll 5 times on the severe/trauma table). Folks on the boards got us straightened out though (and now we're not terrified of taking on level 2 or 3 monsters anymore).

The rulebook is actually pretty good, but a bit much to take in with the details until you've got some games under your belt (and even after that as we revert to some old habits periodically by accident due to forgetfulness).
I did the same thing with severe injuries. After the last time a settlement died, we went back to the rules to see if there is anything we misplayed and that was one of them. Except for certain wording issues, most of the rules are there in the rulebook, it just seems to be a matter of actually finding them. And then there's remembering them, but that isn't Poots' fault
 
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Joseph Nudi
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Jbaue003 wrote:
Blueskew wrote:
Jbaue003 wrote:
dorktron2000 wrote:
Jbaue003 wrote:
Blueskew wrote:
Actually, you can surge on the monster's turn, especially during flows. There is another thread somewhere with great detail on when you can and can't surge (really just breaking down the rulebook's core on the same).

So if a monster has flows in the AI it is processing you can actually swing at that. The same is true of dashing and all other survival abilities. This lets you escape some attacks by dashing (where move happens first, flow, then attack), but not others where (even if you dashed) the flow happens followed by "move and attack" together. You can't escape those if you're still in range.
I'm unfamiliar with the term flow and don't have the rulebook in front of me right now. I know you can use survival actions on the monster's turn, but I didn't think you would be able to use, for example, the extra activation because it isn't your turn. Are flows a game concept that lets you use movements and activations on the monster's turn?
Flows are the downward pointing arrows on AI cards between AI actions. They allow for survival opportunities.
Oh, nice. Must have missed that in the rules. Not sure if such an opportunity has come up yet, but I will keep on the lookout for potential ways to exploit these flows.
Not to worry. We didn't know about flows until halfway through our first settlement ourselves. It makes certain cards by certain Monsters much more manageable. p. 52 has some details.

We also used to apply severe injury rolls for each damage above that which the armor could handle (went 5 damage over your armor, roll 5 times on the severe/trauma table). Folks on the boards got us straightened out though (and now we're not terrified of taking on level 2 or 3 monsters anymore).

The rulebook is actually pretty good, but a bit much to take in with the details until you've got some games under your belt (and even after that as we revert to some old habits periodically by accident due to forgetfulness).
I did the same thing with severe injuries. After the last time a settlement died, we went back to the rules to see if there is anything we misplayed and that was one of them. Except for certain wording issues, most of the rules are there in the rulebook, it just seems to be a matter of actually finding them. And then there's remembering them, but that isn't Poots' fault
Two nights ago we realized that we reverted to standing up after the monster's turn, not after the next monster's turn ended. We hadn't done that since day 1 and we don't know why we did it just two nights ago, then both remembered the next day. Ah well. Free Encourages for everyone I guess.
 
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Joseph Nudi
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Blueskew wrote:
Jbaue003 wrote:
ELicious wrote:
It makes a big difference. Drawing 2 AI at once means that you can see and plan for both AI cards. If you don't know what's coming next, you don't know where to go if you dash, or if you should dodge this attack or save it for the next attack. Also, if he draws 2 AI and they are the last AI, you can potentially surge and kill him before he finishes his attack.
I'm confused how you would use surge to kill him before he finishes his attack. You can only use activation on your turn as far as I know.
Actually, you can surge on the monster's turn, especially during flows. There is another thread somewhere with great detail on when you can and can't surge (really just breaking down the rulebook's core on the same).

So if a monster has flows in the AI it is processing you can actually swing at that. The same is true of dashing and all other survival abilities. This lets you escape some attacks by dashing (where move happens first, flow, then attack), but not others where (even if you dashed) the flow happens followed by "move and attack" together. You can't escape those if you're still in range.
Found the post from Adam himself on Survival Spending for anyone new to flows etc:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/20475634#20475634

The initial post has very helpful information in addition to Adam's examples.
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