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Subject: Ask Andy on YouTube - Hand Limit rule rss

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pɹɐɥɔᴉɹ
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Andy Looney has started a Videoblog on Youtube about his games.
This week: Andy explains a nuance of the Hand Limit rule in Fluxx.

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Andrew Brannan
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If it were me, I would use the "Trash a new rule" card to trash the "Play all" rule, thus ending my turn. Then while discarding down to 2, I'd drop the goal card. I might even keep it, if there will still some of the "shuffle keepers around" cards still to be played.
 
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Yeah, in my opinion, that approach would be less likely to make the other players punch you in the throat. Claiming that "may ignore the hand limit" means you can discard in the middle of your turn... I'd only try that if my opponent was a fuzzy bear without a known history of Fluxx-related violence.
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Just call me Erik
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I wouldn't use that in a casual game, but playing against some other knowledgeable fluxx players I would love to try it.

Anything that adds decisions to Fluxx is a Good Thing(tm)
 
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Robert Crawford
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That's awesome! I totally agree, but never would have thought of it. I'd say you certainly are allowed to discard down to the hand limit. But yeah, would have been easier just to trash a new rule and trash play all.

-Gendo
 
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Dokter Ekwilibreum
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GendoIkari_82 wrote:
That's awesome! I totally agree, but never would have thought of it. I'd say you certainly are allowed to discard down to the hand limit. But yeah, would have been easier just to trash a new rule and trash play all.

-Gendo


But if he trashed the new rule, he couldn't get the two keepers down AND get rid of the offending goal. If he played the two keepers then trashed play all, he'd have two cards left and thus wouldn't be able to discard them. This wouldn't be a problem unless someone played a play 5 or some other such card on their turn, which is definitely likely.
 
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Mario Bava
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Per PsychicAudio's text comments on the YouTube video, I can't agree with Andy's interpretation on this one. I hope I can explain.

His interpretation tries to have it both ways. Draw 3, Play All, and Hand Limit 2 are on the table. Hand limit 2 says: "If it isn't your turn, you should only have 2 cards in your hand. If you have extra cards, discard them immediately. During your turn, you may ignore the Hand Limit, as long as you discard all but 2 of your cards when you end your turn."

I agree the card's text indicates choice by the word "may". But the reason Andy's tactic makes people mad is because if you look at what he does, he is not actually choosing, he is trying to do both. I believe, and Andy and others may differ with me on this, but generally when you have to make a decision in a game, that decision should be binding and clear to the other players. That's only fair, and unfair play makes people mad.

By drawing 3 cards into his 2-card hand, right there he has already made the choice known that he will ignore the hand limit rule, because what he has in his hand now, having started his turn by drawing, is 5 cards, not 2. I feel this decision should be binding: he is officially ignoring the hand limit rule during his turn. He has started his turn, ignored the hand limit by having 5 cards in his hand, so why can he now think: "oh, actually, I drew a card I don't like, so only now that I know what the top 3 cards of the draw pile were, I want to observe the hand limit rule that I already ignored." It's kind of like moving your queen to a checkmate you didn't see and then when your opponent says "checkmate," you say that's not the move you want to make.

So how do you observe the Hand Limit 2 rule when it is your turn? What seems obvious to me is that you have to discard immediately as you draw. You can't pick which cards to discard because having them in your hand in order to choose as Andy does is in violation of the Hand Limit, as explained above. That means you draw discard, draw discard, draw discard. The only possible advantage to this is avoiding the risk of drawing a card you don't want to play (like Brain No TV, for example) and finding out what the cards were by having them in the discard pile, so I don't see it being used very much.

But there is one situation where I can see a person using the Hand Limit 2 card to his advantage in a similar but importantly different situation. Let's say Draw 3 and Play all are the only new rules on the table, his friend had Brain (and no TV), and Andy draws the Brain No TV Goal and the Hand Limit 2 Rule and some other irrelevant card in his draw. Since he has to play all in the order of his choosing, he plays Hand Limit 2 first and says "I may ignore the rule during my turn, but it's my turn and I'm NOT going to ignore it, and instead observe it by immediately discarding extra cards." The way I see it, that's the only way he could fairly get by the Play All/Brain No TV dilemma. The difference is that the Hand Limit rule was not already in effect but he drew it and put it into effect.

Sorry that that was so long-winded. Does it make sense?
 
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Russ Williams
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Note that Andy later changed his ruling on this:
http://www.wunderland.com/WhatsOld/2008/WN.08.28.08.html
WN.08.28.08 wrote:
It had never been my intention to allow the player to discard to the Hand Limit during their turn; however, since I was sloppy in writing the original text for the card, and used the word may, I felt I had to agree with those who argued for a broad interpretation. In a recent debate on the Fluxx mailing list, Brian Stout put it this way:

"I can only conclude that the 'may ignore... as long as' wording on the card allows the current player to apply the Hand Limit at any point in their turn they want... even if Andy didn't realize the implications of the phrasing at first."

Ultimately, I decided to allow it, since it really isn't a very useful trick very often; however, it complicate things without adding very much, so I've changed my mind again, and I'm revising these cards to make my original intent the official version.
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