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Dungeon Saga: Dwarf King's Quest» Forums » Variants

Subject: Revised Invisible Overlord Rules rss

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Chris Spray
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Pontypridd
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I found the IO rules in the AC to be rather poor, so I wrote a revised version. Playing using these rules was a rather brutal experience, so v.2 may be kinder.

INVISIBLE OVERLORD REVISED RULES (v.1)



OVERLORD TURN. Remember a model can only act once per OT.

1. (OPTIONAL) Combat. All models that can attack heroes without moving do so. (draw Least armour)

2. First IO Card draw. Use scenario number of actions rather than the number on the IO card.

3. Second IO Card draw. Use number on the IO card.


OPTIONAL: Monsters with a Combat of 4 do up to 2 damage.

OPTIONAL: Monsters may move through the squares of other monsters and monsters may end their moves on the squares of other monsters but doing so will displace the non-moving monster into the nearest free square closest to the most threat hero.

OPTIONAL: Heroes that eliminate a model my advance into it's square, then change facing


SCENARIO OBJECTIVE

The scenario objective refers the scenario objective listed in the scenario, or if that is still behind a door, that door or doors.

THREAT

The hero closest to the to the scenario objective is always the hero that is most threatening, the Threats listed on the IO card are secondary threats, and finally all other heroes.


REVISED ORDERS

Note that with Undead, if there is a draw when deciding which model to act with then all models in the draw act.

Attack

First attack hero that is in monsters front arc then move monsters into a position where they can attack the hero with the highest threat, then attack him. Use monsters that use spells first, then missile monsters, then melee monsters. Where the highest threat hero cannot be attacked choose the highest threat hero can can be attacked. If more than one monster can attack, choose the monster furthest from the hero.


Surround

Determine the hero closest to the scenario objective, then determine the closest route to the scenario objective. Move the most powerful monster to block that route, moving as close the scenario objective as possible. If the route is already blocked and secondary routes exist, treat that route as the closest route, otherwise double up on the blocking. If more than one objective choose the objective nearest to the closest hero.


Gang Up

Move as many models as possible adjacent to the hero with the most monsters adjacent to him. After moving attack.


Pin

Determine hero with fewest monsters who have their front arcs in that hero, then move the nearest monster to that hero so that the monster's front arc is touching that hero. Then attack.


Support

1. Cast Spells that are not attacks.
2. Raise Dead using the bone pile closest to the scenario objective, not adjacent to a hero, spawning the most powerful monster.
3. Move monsters towards the most threatening hero, closest monster first, attacking as soon as that monster moves into range.
4. Raise Dead using the bone pile closest to the scenario objective, spawning the most powerful monster.
 
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Brad P
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I think step 1 and your optional rules will break the game. The Character feature of undead if used properly is probably all the boost that is needed.
 
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Chris Spray
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Pontypridd
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eriochrome wrote:
I think step 1 and your optional rules will break the game. The Character feature of undead if used properly is probably all the boost that is needed.
Only if you let your squishy heroes get hit. My IO rules are designed to punish careless play. That being said they may be too harsh, so step 1 could get modified.
 
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Brad P
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Krasny wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
I think step 1 and your optional rules will break the game. The Character feature of undead if used properly is probably all the boost that is needed.
Only if you let your squishy heroes get hit. My IO rules are designed to punish careless play. That being said they may be too harsh, so step 1 could get modified.
Ending up with enemy models in your front arc is not careless play. The heroes have to be aggressive due to the clock requirements. Sometimes a monster does not die when you attack it. It should not automatically do 1 wound to you (optional rule 1) for this regardless of hero. The tanks need to get on the monsters to protect the weaker guys even if they do not kill them. It is punishing not for "careless" play but a bad die roll which is generally the opposite of fun. The punishment for having guys in your front arc is already that when another guys comes you are outnumbered.

The new guy moves first and attacks you with the outnumbered bonus, then the second guy attacks you with a different activation also with the outnumbered bonus. That is how the smart necromancer rolls which is what we want the AI to try to be.
 
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James McMillan
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I think this should be in 'Variants'
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Brad P
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Actually leaving minions in the arcs of the fighter is actually smart play as it can bait the real necromancer into wasting commands attacking him or focusing on him instead of the squishy guy.
 
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Brad P
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drjmcmillan wrote:
I think this should be in 'Variants'
I agree as it is not clarifying the rules but totally changing their nature. Nothing wrong with making a super brutal AI set but I think play against this AI set would lead to tactics that are not very similar to the real live necromancer.
 
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Chris Spray
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Pontypridd
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eriochrome wrote:
drjmcmillan wrote:
I think this should be in 'Variants'
I agree as it is not clarifying the rules but totally changing their nature. Nothing wrong with making a super brutal AI set but I think play against this AI set would lead to tactics that are not very similar to the real live necromancer.
I will make OT step 1 as optional in the next version.
 
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Brad P
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Krasny wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
drjmcmillan wrote:
I think this should be in 'Variants'
I agree as it is not clarifying the rules but totally changing their nature. Nothing wrong with making a super brutal AI set but I think play against this AI set would lead to tactics that are not very similar to the real live necromancer.
I will make OT step 1 as optional in the next version.
That is probably a good idea. Remember that as written it would also mean bosses auto attacked heroes and while they is probably what they would do it is a little meaner to give bosses free activations.

It is pretty easy to get stuck on a new idea like that and just decide you are crazy and not read the rest which might be more generally useful to people.
 
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Chris Spray
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Quote:
ometimes a monster does not die when you attack it. It should not automatically do 1 wound to you (optional rule 1) for this regardless of hero.
Monsters do not automatically do damage. They just get to attack if you are in their front arc.
 
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Brad P
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Krasny wrote:
Quote:
ometimes a monster does not die when you attack it. It should not automatically do 1 wound to you (optional rule 1) for this regardless of hero.
Monsters do not automatically do damage. They just get to attack if you are in their front arc.
I was also using your option 1 along with it. If I am reading what you meant incorrectly let me know. If a monster does damage equal to half its attack value which have a min of 2 in the game then they do at least 1 damage for any attack which means 1 wound off any hero.

Since you seem confused by my response I am guessing you mean they do 1 hit but that also implies 1 damage. Remember that you are not comparing the number of successes that beat the defender armor between the attacker and defender you are actually comparing the values on the dice themselves in a pairwise way after rejecting all those that do not beat the armor.
 
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Chris Spray
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Pontypridd
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CRAP! Well read.

I meant to say that monsters with a combat of 4 do up to 2 damage.

Well spotted, will update in next version.
 
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Brad P
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Are you trying to allow the monsters to be able to do more than 1 wound to the heroes with any attack?

I think this is also a pretty fundamental change to the rules that is just going to punish people for a bad defensive die roll. The attack system is already set up that the weakest monster can hurt the strongest hero by getting a 6 on one die when the hero does not get a 6 so I am not sure this is required.

It will definitely make the heroes more likely to lose by actually crippling a hero as opposed to the clock but given that the number of wounds you can take outside healing magic is fixed regardless of hero level it might make the last missions with lots of monsters and better ones rather tough.
 
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Chris Spray
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Pontypridd
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It is optional, and only monsters with combat 4 or better do up to 2 points of damage.

Remember this is a ameritrash dungeon game where luck plays a big role (roll), not a bloody euro.

Quote:
It will definitely make the heroes more likely to lose by actually crippling a hero as opposed to the clock but given that the number of wounds you can take outside healing magic is fixed regardless of hero level it might make the last missions with lots of monsters and better ones rather tough.
I'd rather lose by dying as nature intended, than being timed out.
 
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Brad P
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Krasny wrote:
It is optional, and only monsters with combat 4 or better do up to 2 points of damage.

Remember this is a ameritrash dungeon game where luck plays a big role (roll), not a bloody euro.

Quote:
It will definitely make the heroes more likely to lose by actually crippling a hero as opposed to the clock but given that the number of wounds you can take outside healing magic is fixed regardless of hero level it might make the last missions with lots of monsters and better ones rather tough.
I'd rather lose by dying as nature intended, than being timed out.
I am more of a mini/rpg gamer so euro/american does not mean anything to me. Dying is better than timing out but if you can lose both ways and trying to beat the clock leads you to die faster than people will just not finish missions.

Making the monsters a little tougher to compenstate for the no optimal use of the interrupts and overlord hand and AI that will never be perfect is reasonable. I just think that care should be taken such that when AI is working right you are just not slaughter.

The more than 1 wound thing might be a good thing for bosses like a Vorpal ability that allows something like 1-2 hits = 1 wound, 3-5 = 2 wounds, 6+ = 3 wounds. The bosses seem the most likely to use the rule and probably will suffer the most from the AI since they have special abilities which should enter the decision tree but might not unless you write special AI just for them. Which is an option but will have problems when coupling the AI with the Uncharted Dungeons which people really are interested in doing.
 
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