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Subject: Force Wave into Hellfire Trap rss

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steve sherbert
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My question is:
If I force wave a bunch of creatures into a hellfire trap, does the trap attack all the creatures, or just one?

The question seems to have been answered (it attacks just one) on another post at http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=9967.0;nowap (sorry for linking to another forum) but there is precious little in the way of explanation or reference to the rulebook or codex.

In my mind, and intuitively it would seem, the trap should affect ALL the creatures, because that's exactly what a trap is. Most rules in this game tend to follow intuition by design. All creatures enter the zone at the same time, the trap goes off, attacking all the creatures, and then the trap is destroyed. If the trap were a hidden pit, of course all the creatures would fall in, why wouldn't the same hold for a burst of fire?

I'm willing to play the game either way (although it seriously nerfs the forcemaster trap build!), but without reference to a specific rule, it seems like the 'attack all creatures' is intuitive.

Thoughts?
 
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Aaron Brosman
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That thread is correct. The Trap can only trigger once, so it will trigger on the first thing pushed into the zone. Since you're pushing all of the creatures you get to choose which one moves into the zone first.

Hellfire Trap is only able to explode on a single creature.

I hope this helps.
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Jeff Dunford
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Cropcircles wrote:
That thread is correct. The Trap can only trigger once, so it will trigger on the first thing pushed into the zone. Since you're pushing all of the creatures you get to choose which one moves into the zone first.

Hellfire Trap is only able to explode on a single creature.

I hope this helps.
Sounds to me like we need a new trap with a zone attack or sweeping attack.

Traps are fun. More traps, please!

P.S. Can't wait to use Cascading Force Wave to cause a "domino effect" that results in the last creature getting pushed into a trap (Hellfire or Teleport). Or just into a wall of the arena for a 3-dice unavoidable attack, for that matter.
 
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Aaron Brosman
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I do have a few new traps in mind, and I have a Mage in mind who may love them. ;-)
 
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steve sherbert
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I guess I'm just wondering which rule you're referencing. Is it just the wording on the card? To me, the card is ambiguous at best, and doesn't overrule the common sense idea that since everyone enters the room at once, everyone gets hit with the trap. Not meaning to be combative, just looking for a source.
 
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Jan Probst
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stevesherbert wrote:
I guess I'm just wondering which rule you're referencing. Is it just the wording on the card? To me, the card is ambiguous at best, and doesn't overrule the common sense idea that since everyone enters the room at once, everyone gets hit with the trap. Not meaning to be combative, just looking for a source.
Doesn't Hellfire Trap use an attack line, instead of a verbal description of the damage it does ala "x dice of damage"? Attack lines have special conventions how to display multiple targets (Zone attack icon, Sweep keyword)
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Jonathan Challis
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stevesherbert wrote:
I guess I'm just wondering which rule you're referencing. Is it just the wording on the card? To me, the card is ambiguous at best, and doesn't overrule the common sense idea that since everyone enters the room at once, everyone gets hit with the trap. Not meaning to be combative, just looking for a source.
Multiple events never happen 'all at once', there is always a sequence. Even if you have triggered 3 creatures to move into a zone, one has to move first, then the 2nd, then the third.

Also, the attack bar specifies it's an attack on a single creature, not a zone attack, not a sweeping attack. There is no way that attack bar can ever be applied to multiple targets.

Your 'common sense' is trying to apply theme over rules. This game is pretty good at matching the two, but you play by rules, not theme.

stevesherbert wrote:
If the trap were a hidden pit, of course all the creatures would fall in, why wouldn't the same hold for a burst of fire?
Sorry, wrong again. If you Force Wave 3 creatures into a Spiked Pit, you move them 1 at a time, and the first one falls in, and the rest are safe.
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Ivan Madd
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stevesherbert wrote:
I guess I'm just wondering which rule you're referencing. Is it just the wording on the card? To me, the card is ambiguous at best, and doesn't overrule the common sense idea that since everyone enters the room at once, everyone gets hit with the trap. Not meaning to be combative, just looking for a source.
As others have stated, it's basically just following the card. The card makes a single attack against a single creature and then goes away. Compare this to Mangler Caltrops which sticks around to attack each creature that enters.

There is a general rule that when multiple things happen simultaneously, the players decide the order to resolve them in. Each player decides the order for their own effects, and if both players control effects then Initiative decides.

Thus, you push them all in simultaneously. They trigger the trap. You decide which one to resolve the trap with first. After it resolves, the trap goes away and can not affect any other creatures. It might not be the most thematic way of handling it to you, but it is the rules. It does help if you think of it in terms of which creature was in the front of the pack, rather than just that they all entered at the same time though.
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steve sherbert
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I still can't find a reference to any specific rule. The card says, "When a creature enters this zone, make the attack. Then destroy the card".

My interpretation of the card is:

Creature 1 enters the zone, gets attacked. Creature 2 enters the zone, gets attacked. Card gets destroyed.

I understand the 'correct' interpretation, but what I don't understand is where it says to do it that way instead of my way. (And my way is MUCH more intuitive, it seems, so without reference to a rule, it seems we should play 'common sense' rules, no?). Again, just looking for the rule that you are referencing to make this call.
 
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Ivan Madd
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The card says to make the attack and then destroy the card. The attack only hits one creature. After that creature has been attacked, the card is destroyed and can not attack a second creature. It is a card effect rather than a general rule that is preventing it from attacking multiple creatures. If it stuck around after making the attack, then it could perhaps affect more creatures, but it doesn't.

So, Creature 1 enters the zone, gets attacked, and then the trap gets destroyed because it says it does immediately after making it's attack. Then Creature 2 enters the zone and there is no trap to affect it.
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Jonathan Challis
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stevesherbert wrote:
I still can't find a reference to any specific rule. The card says, "When a creature enters this zone, make the attack. Then destroy the card".
You have already quoted it: "When a creature enters this zone, make the attack. Then destroy the card"

A creature (singular), the attack (singular) then destroy the card.

Your way really isn't intuitive or common sense. You have just got stuck in a mental rut and can't see past it.
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steve sherbert
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I'm really just looking for the rule(s) from which you derive the assertions:

1. "Multiple events never happen 'all at once', there is always a sequence",
(Because the name and the explanation of the event, 'Force Wave', suggests precisely the opposite)

2. "the attack bar specifies it's an attack on a single creature",
(Because I would argue that multiple creatures are each 'a' creature, and so each get attacked before the trap is destroyed. Again, this is the 'common sense' interpretation of a trap, and so without substantial evidence to the contrary, e.g., a rule, it seems like it should be played this way by default, no?)

3. "If you Force Wave 3 creatures into a Spiked Pit, you move them 1 at a time"
(See #1)

The reason I'm trying to clear this up is that it's no fun to spend time building a deck, only to find out that the cards don't work intuitively! Who would ever have thought that traps would be so... predictable and untraplike? Now that I know that the forcemaster trap build is a bust (why, I still haven't been able to ascertain), I wonder what other ideas won't fly because of some obscure rule(s)? Where are people finding these rules? In the rulebook? The codex?
 
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Aaron Brosman
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In the Rules and Codex supplement under Force Wave is says: The controller of Force Wave decides what order the creatures are pushed in. Completely resolve one Push before going on to the next (PG 36).

So, you push a creature into the trap zone, the trap resolves and is destroyed, then you continue pushing other creatures.

I'm very sorry that you find this interaction unintuitive. My experience with traps in my life supports this interaction.
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steve sherbert
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Yay, we have a source! Wow. Very obscure. Thank you internets.

Someone who finds my interpretation of traps counter-intuitive must have very little experience with traps!
 
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Jonathan Challis
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stevesherbert wrote:
Yay, we have a source! Wow. Very obscure. Thank you internets.

Someone who finds my interpretation of traps counter-intuitive must have very little experience with traps!
I find the way the cards are written and work to be very intuitive. I honestly can't see your interpretation as anything other than contrived if you come to that after having read the rules.
 
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Tom Cannon
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stevesherbert wrote:
Yay, we have a source! Wow. Very obscure. Thank you internets.

Someone who finds my interpretation of traps counter-intuitive must have very little experience with traps!
For me the nuance is the difference between attacks (or traps that trigger attacks) that target a single object versus multiple objects. Some traps in D&D might hit only the person that triggered it while other traps (poison gas as an example) would effect every object in the room.

In Mage Wars this is handled through the targeting rules. Some attacks (I. E. Zone attacks) will hit all objects in the zone. Other attacks have the sweeping trait that targets multiple objects. However, I don't believe we have any traps that deliver a Zone attack. At least not yet...
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Aaron Brosman
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I've actually had a shockingly high amount of experience with traps, but I won't get into that. It has little to do with gaming.

I'm glad I could help with a specific rules source.
 
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steve sherbert
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What I find complicated about this scenario is that, according to the rule cited, the Force Wave spell seems to get interrupted by the springing of the trap. In general, the rules seem to be very step-by-step, 'resolve one action before moving on to the next', except in this case. However, I understand the logic here, of seeing the Force Wave as applying separate Push actions for each creature targeted, but that is definitely anti-thematic and counter-intuitive, at least with respect to every single wave I've ever encountered.

Thanks for clarifying!
 
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steve sherbert
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@ Jonathan Challis: We eventually found the source of this rule, but it wasn't the rulebook or the codex, but the 'rules supplement'. If a mechanic needs 3 levels of clarification (as this one does), it is demonstrably not intuitive.

And I read the rules. And the codex. Nothing there even hinted at this quirky wave behavior, so I think I was justified in assuming that the Force Wave acted like a regular wave. To anyone who has been to the beach, the official 'one-at-a-time' wave action seems 'contrived'.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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stevesherbert wrote:
@ Jonathan Challis: We eventually found the source of this rule, but it wasn't the rulebook or the codex, but the 'rules supplement'. If a mechanic needs 3 levels of clarification (as this one does), it is demonstrably not intuitive.

And I read the rules. And the codex. Nothing there even hinted at this quirky wave behavior, so I think I was justified in assuming that the Force Wave acted like a regular wave. To anyone who has been to the beach, the official 'one-at-a-time' wave action seems 'contrived'.
The codex supplement is 5x longer than the rules (ditto for most CCG's and wargames, just like MtG or similar the rulebook only lets you play to a casual level.

As to real waves - just forget 'real' anything. Just look for rules - forget theme.

I suspect we come from different starting points for 'intuitive'. I strongly suspect you are a boardgamer, rather than a wargamer or CCGer...
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steve sherbert
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My starting point for intuition about waves comes from the beach. And from the meaning of the word 'wave' (singular).

In this case looking for rules was precisely the problem. Since scouring the rule book, the codex, and the updated codex yielded no result, the logical thing to do was to presume that this meant that the Force Wave acted like a regular wave. (I understand that the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but it isn't evidence of existence, either!)
 
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Jonathan Challis
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stevesherbert wrote:
My starting point for intuition about waves comes from the beach. And from the meaning of the word 'wave' (singular).

In this case looking for rules was precisely the problem. Since scouring the rule book, the codex, and the updated codex yielded no result, the logical thing to do was to presume that this meant that the Force Wave acted like a regular wave. (I understand that the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but it isn't evidence of existence, either!)
In any game where stuff can happen triggered by other events, or things in response to other things, then almost NOTHING happens simultaneously. Even if there are simultaneous triggers, resolution is in a sequence. multiple things can't happen at once. This is broadly true of of most complex games.
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Dean Adam
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stevesherbert wrote:
My starting point for intuition about waves comes from the beach. And from the meaning of the word 'wave' (singular).
There;s your problem then....you forgot to look at the card. Its not a wave at the beach, its a force wave...shown as multiple waves.

Besides, even if you lined up a group of people in the ocean they wouldn't all hit the beach simultaneously. It might look like it on the best case scenario, but if its a photo finish the likelihood of all the force, stance, inertia and tumble landing in exact the same way for a simultaneous touch on a magical trigger, in part designed by one of the people you're arguing with... seems unlikely, no matter how intuitive.

Now if you'd argued that because you can move and strike you should be able to strike and move I'd be with you. That seems counter intuitive, but it also makes the game work...and its not a simulation, just a game (my fav game, but just a game).

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steve sherbert
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I definitely read the card. And the rulebook. And the codex. And the updated codex. Seeing nothing in there, I figured I'd go with what makes sense, which is that a wave works all at once, like literally every other wave in the history of waves. The card is called 'Force Wave', not 'Force Waves'.

If a game is going to include a gimmicky mechanic like this one, you'd think they'd at least try to explain it right off the bat. How did people play this before codex supplement #4235687 came out?

I'm not sure how waves work where you're from, but every one I've seen acts as a single force. Of course, different objects get affected differently, but the key idea is that the wave's effects happen all at once. Not sure how anyone who has been to the beach could argue otherwise.
 
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Jonathan Challis
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stevesherbert wrote:

If a game is going to include a gimmicky mechanic like this one, you'd think they'd at least try to explain it right off the bat. How did people play this before codex supplement #4235687 came out?
We played it correctly. Intuitively.
 
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