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Subject: Buzzkill: The true cost of shipping rss

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"The 15 largest cargo ships pollute as much as all the cars in the world."

http://www.ted.com/talks/rose_george_inside_the_secret_shipp...
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tesuji wrote:
"The 15 largest cargo ships pollute as much as all the cars in the world."

http://www.ted.com/talks/rose_george_inside_the_secret_shipp...


Looks like all you hippy climate changing whiners better stop buying board games.
Right?
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TheDashi wrote:
tesuji wrote:
"The 15 largest cargo ships pollute as much as all the cars in the world."

http://www.ted.com/talks/rose_george_inside_the_secret_shipp...


Looks like all you hippy climate changing whiners better stop buying board games.
Right?


Or start lobbying for cleaner container ships. Much like we still drive cars and lobby for cleaner exhausts.

No need to go all or nothing fallacies.
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tesuji wrote:
"The 15 largest cargo ships pollute as much as all the cars in the world."

http://www.ted.com/talks/rose_george_inside_the_secret_shipp...


I was listening to it while I was working so wasn't focused all the way, did she say anything about the U.N. looking at these ships as part of their campaign to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
This is why we need pipelines.



No no no no.
It is all or nothing right?
Pipeline still gives us oil, and they dont want us to have oil at all, so we cant have the pipeline to make things better, because we dont want oil at all right?
 
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TheChin! wrote:
tesuji wrote:
"The 15 largest cargo ships pollute as much as all the cars in the world."

http://www.ted.com/talks/rose_george_inside_the_secret_shipp...


I was listening to it while I was working so wasn't focused all the way, did she say anything about the U.N. looking at these ships as part of their campaign to reduce greenhouse gas emissions?

She made a general statement about people working to make them greener. Sounds like higher grade fuel alone would make a significant difference.

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Drew1365 wrote:
This is why we need pipelines.



Exactly! So we can bring the dirtiest oil in the world from Canada to the U.S. (across the longest land border in the world) by totally unruptureable pipeline rather than by ocean-going vessel. If we increase access to dirty energy, we'll have cleaner energy. Don't you foolish liberals get it?
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rinelk wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
This is why we need pipelines.



Exactly! So we can bring the dirtiest oil in the world from Canada to the U.S. (across the longest land border in the world) by totally unruptureable pipeline rather than by ocean-going vessel. If we increase access to dirty energy, we'll have cleaner energy. Don't you foolish liberals get it?

Of course, we could instead have the Canadians build a pipeline from Alberta to British Columbia so that Chinese tankers can then carry it across the Pacific. What could go wrong?

 
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Drew1365 wrote:
This is why we need pipelines.


that's pretty ignorant.
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TheDashi wrote:
Looks like all you hippy climate changing whiners better stop buying board games.
Right?

right
 
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Kelsey Rinella
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Drew1365 wrote:
This is why we need pipelines.

Greenists oppose a pipeline because they claim it's harmful to the environment.

Trains carrying oil have proven far more harmful to the environment.



They don't solve the problem.
 
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jeremy cobert
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rinelk wrote:


But you have to account for the total number of gallons of oils transported by the total number of accidents in both forms of transportation.

It's much like the Nuclear energy debate. Nuclear is much safer per energy created then any other forms of energy,
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jeremycobert wrote:
rinelk wrote:


But you have to account for the total number of gallons of oils transported by the total number of accidents in both forms of transportation.


Pipelines have spilled way more than trains (pg 11) calculated by Barrels per Billion-Ton-Mile (which is apparently how these things are calculated). A railcar carries about 700 barrels, so even the largest train derailment is a drop in the bucket compared to the largest pipeline spill of 40,000 barrels.

That said, there are a lot of different ways to measure impact. Environmental damage? Human health damage? Economic damage? Every single method is a trade off so getting everyone to agree on which priorities are the most important to trade is the trick.
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I wonder how the economics of having nuclear powered cargo ships would work out....
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GuidoVanHorn wrote:
I wonder how the economics of having nuclear powered cargo ships would work out....


The first half of the talk was pertinent to that: piracy. Unless you can economically protect it like we protect one of our Nuclear carriers, it probably wouldn't be worth the cost.
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tesuji wrote:
"The 15 largest cargo ships pollute as much as all the cars in the world."

http://www.ted.com/talks/rose_george_inside_the_secret_shipp...


That's silly on the face of it, i.e. it doesn't even pass the smell test. Transporting fuel itself would be multiples of the use of the fuel.

In any case, just do some simple arithmetic by looking up the horse power rating of the largest ship. I got that 15 of the largest single ship equals about 350,000 cars even if you account that cars are driven only an hour a day and ships sails at maximum RPM 365 days/24 ours per day.

What is it with progressives that they immediately swallow any and all tripe without a second's thought.
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isaacc wrote:
tesuji wrote:
"The 15 largest cargo ships pollute as much as all the cars in the world."

http://www.ted.com/talks/rose_george_inside_the_secret_shipp...


That's silly on the face of it, i.e. it doesn't even pass the smell test. Transporting fuel itself would be multiples of the use of the fuel.

In any case, just do some simple arithmetic by looking up the horse power rating of the largest ship. I got that 15 of the largest single ship equals about 350,000 cars even if you account that cars are driven only an hour a day and ships sails at maximum RPM 365 days/24 ours per day.

What is it with progressives that they immediately swallow any and all tripe without a second's thought.

Because ships run on gasoline or diesel, right? They don't run on seriously low grade bunker fuel with about 2000x the sulfur content?
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The largest ships do run on diesel.
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isaacc wrote:

The largest ships do run on diesel.

Citation needed. Are you confusing the fact their powerplants are "diesel engines" with the fuel they use? I assure you that the Mærsk E series ships, still among the largest cargo ships in the world, burn bunker fuel in their diesel engines. Bunker fuel is simply very low grade fuel oil while diesel is a higher grade. It simply doesn't receive the level of refining that diesel does and is literally what's left over after refining off the higher qualities. For reference, the diesel in cars (and home home heating oil) is No 2 fuel oil. Bunker fuel is usually No 6.
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California requires shipping vessels to switch to a low sulfur fuel within 24 miles of the coastline. Apparently it reduces particulate pollution by 90%. I can't imagine what the cost trade off is though.
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damiangerous wrote:
isaacc wrote:

The largest ships do run on diesel.

Citation needed. Are you confusing the fact their powerplants are "diesel engines" with the fuel they use? I assure you that the Mærsk E series ships, still among the largest cargo ships in the world, burn bunker fuel in their diesel engines. Bunker fuel is simply very low grade fuel oil while diesel is a higher grade. It simply doesn't receive the level of refining that diesel does and is literally what's left over after refining off the higher qualities. For reference, the diesel in cars (and home home heating oil) is No 2 fuel oil. Bunker fuel is usually No 6.


No, you're right. I did exactly that. Diesel engine equals diesel fuel.

At my very liberal rates, the top 15 ships equals about half the number of cars in the world.

I don't know where 2000x times the sulphur content comes from except that what Wikipedia says. The lowest grade bunker fuel is 4.5% m/m and automotive is 0.1%, which is a 45x difference.

In any case, this year, regulations bring marine fuel down to 0.1%, though I'm sure the author just forgot.
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isaacc wrote:
damiangerous wrote:
isaacc wrote:

The largest ships do run on diesel.

Citation needed. Are you confusing the fact their powerplants are "diesel engines" with the fuel they use? I assure you that the Mærsk E series ships, still among the largest cargo ships in the world, burn bunker fuel in their diesel engines. Bunker fuel is simply very low grade fuel oil while diesel is a higher grade. It simply doesn't receive the level of refining that diesel does and is literally what's left over after refining off the higher qualities. For reference, the diesel in cars (and home home heating oil) is No 2 fuel oil. Bunker fuel is usually No 6.


No, you're right. I did exactly that. Diesel engine equals diesel fuel.

At my very liberal rates, the top 15 ships equals about half the number of cars in the world.

I don't know where 2000x times the sulphur content comes from except that what Wikipedia says. The lowest grade bunker fuel is 4.5% m/m and automotive is 0.1%, which is a 45x difference.

In any case, this year, regulations bring marine fuel down to 0.1%, though I'm sure the author just forgot.
.

Those regulations are only certain areas, Emissions Control Areas, which in the US are within 200 miles of the coast. They are supposed to be dropping further in 2020, but they're subject to possible delay on review in 2018.

Pre-2015 and currently outside of ECA's the allowable bunker fuel sulfur content is 35,000ppm. The EPA has required highway diesel fuel to be 15ppm or less since 2010 (phased in starting in 2006).

2,333x less.
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tesuji wrote:
"The 15 largest cargo ships pollute as much as all the cars in the world."

http://www.ted.com/talks/rose_george_inside_the_secret_shipp...

Here is the actual quote from the article.
Quote:
And shipping is the greenest method of transport. In terms of carbon emissions per ton per mile, it emits about a thousandth of aviation and about a tenth of trucking. But it's not benign, because there's so much of it. So shipping emissions are about three to four percent, almost the same as aviation's. And if you put shipping emissions on a list of the countries' carbon emissions, it would come in about sixth, somewhere near Germany. It was calculated in 2009 that the 15 largest ships pollute in terms of particles and soot and noxious gases as much as all the cars in the world.

It says shipping is the greenest form of transport.

It goes on to say --
Quote:
"...that the 15 largest ships pollute in terms of particles and soot and noxious gases as much as all the cars in the world.

It doesn't say that for the most part almost all the soot released ends up in the ocean before it makes landfall which I don't think hurts ocean life, but I could be wrong about that.
The "noxious gases" will also mostly never make it to land, their impact on ocean life certainly may be a problem.

So, I think that the quote is sort of meaningless.

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