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Subject: Winner! or maybe not? rss

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Antonia Browne
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Hello everyone

I have a question about noticing when i can get a noble and winning. What if someone unadvertidly gets the amount of mines to claim a noble favour. But even him didn´t notice it. And then another player purchase a mine and gets that noble. And then the first player notice that he could have gotten it long ago. Who that noble is?

The same question for winning. What if someone reaches 15 points but didn't notice it. And then another player does it a few rounds after. Who is the winner?

Thanks in advance! I'll apreciate your help!

Antonia
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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You have to notice and pick it up on your turn. Once someone else starts their turn, you are out of luck.
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Billy McBoatface
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Yes. Taking nobles is optional. There's no reason not to take one, but the rules are pretty explicit that it isn't automatic...so if you don't do it, you lose.

Edit: Oops, I remember rules wrong, as pointed out below. They are not optional. Not sure how to answer original question then.
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Andy Burgess
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wmshub wrote:
Yes. Taking nobles is optional. There's no reason not to take one, but the rules are pretty explicit that it isn't automatic...so if you don't do it, you lose.


I disagree. From the rules:

rule book wrote:
The noble tiles are visible in the middle of the table. At the end of their turn, a player automatically receives the visit from a noble if that player has the amount of bonuses (and only bonuses) required, and they get the corresponding tile.
A player cannot refuse a visit from a noble.
Receiving a noble isn’t considered to be an action. Each noble tile is worth 3 prestige points, but players can only get a single one per turn


In my games, we'd rewind and concede the victory to whoever really won first. I don't like games where it devolves to hoping the other players haven't noticed something that could/should win them the game anyway. If a player didn't notice something like this and I did, I'd just point it out to them. In short - win because you deserve to, not because you kept silent when you could've helped.
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Joe Oppedisano
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wmshub wrote:
Yes. Taking nobles is optional. There's no reason not to take one, but the rules are pretty explicit that it isn't automatic...so if you don't do it, you lose.


Actually this is incorrect. It is not optional, it is automatic. Rules state, "At the end of their turn, a player automatically receives the visit from a noble if that player has the amount of bonuses required, and the get the corresponding tile. A player cannot refuse a visit from a noble."

Unfortunately the rules still don't address what to do when someone misses information. There was actually a previous thread on this very topic of how to handle when someone misses something before the next player goes.

I think ultimately, you need to decide how to handle it as a group as a standing rule before playing again (much like how to handle cocked dice).

From my perspective, the wins stand as is, but I would consider them "asterisk" win.
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Antonia Browne
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Thanks to all the repliers! But i'm still lost. Maybe we need the response of the designer of the game? Someone knows what does he think about this topic?
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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I don't think that it really makes sense to expect a game's designer to rule on what to do when players make errors applying the rules.

Resolution of these cases seems to fall more under the domain of house rules. It may be something reasonable to discuss in these forums, but it might not be practical to expect a formal ruling from a designer.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Unless I am teaching the game, I am not going to help someone beat me. The rules say you can't refuse a visit from a noble but it doesn't say you can't overlook one. I will keep playing as I do and everyone else is free to make their own decisions. I doubt I will be playing any Splendor tournaments.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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gillum wrote:
I don't think that it really makes sense to expect a game's designer to rule on what to do when players make errors applying the rules.
Indeed.

gillum wrote:
Resolution of these cases seems to fall more under the domain of house rules.
My question is, unless you have something more than bragging rights for a single game riding on this, why is this that big of a deal? "Oh, you should have won that game, oh well, we screwed up." If it really means that much to you, play another game of it.
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PJ Cunningham
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In my group, for ease of play, we usually say, "you snooze, you lose." That is, you are responsible for your own gameplay. If you fail to apply a rule that would have been beneficial to you, you're out of luck.

That said, we're very forgiving to small mistakes and especially to new players still learning a game. But generally speaking, we don't like retroactive gaming.
 
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Andy Burgess
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rickert wrote:
... I am not going to help someone beat me.


I understand what you're saying, but for me, that's the wrong way of looking at it. This is not a case where you'd be pointing out a better option that someone could have taken. This is you helping to ensure that the rules of the game are fairly applied. That's very different, and is why I think that staying silent when you've noticed an error (which this effectively is) in the hope that you can win before the error is spotted is not the right thing to do.

In other words, I'd expect each player at the table to referee the game according to the rules, given that you can't have an actual referee present.

In a tournament, I'd say other rules apply - stay silent, there's more at stake. But then again, I'd expect the tournament to be refereed, especially if there's a decent prize. And if it's not, I'd expect the players to play honourably. But I suppose you'd have to agree that beforehand.
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Russ Williams
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rickert wrote:
Unless I am teaching the game, I am not going to help someone beat me.

Huh? It's not helping someone beat you, it's making sure that the rules are correctly followed. Taking the noble is a required thing meant to happen automatically, not an optional choice or decision. Intentionally staying silent about a rule violation just because the violation benefits you seems pretty not in the spirit of gaming to me.

---

I'm with gillum on this; it's a meta-question what to do when people accidentally break the rules and it's noticed later.

The 2 usual possibilities are:

1. Rewind to correct the error. In easy cases to rewind, this seems pretty reasonable to me.

2. "If it's laid, it's played." I.e. the error occurred, shit happens, oh well, carry on with the game.

In practice, we often use policy 2. But no way would I misuse policy 2 to justify intentionally staying silent about a rule violation which benefitted me.
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Eric Hymowitz
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MercifulBiscuit wrote:
rickert wrote:
... I am not going to help someone beat me.


I understand what you're saying, but for me, that's the wrong way of looking at it. This is not a case where you'd be pointing out a better option that someone could have taken. This is you helping to ensure that the rules of the game are fairly applied. That's very different, and is why I think that staying silent when you've noticed an error (which this effectively is) in the hope that you can win before the error is spotted is not the right thing to do.

In other words, I'd expect each player at the table to referee the game according to the rules, given that you can't have an actual referee present.

In a tournament, I'd say other rules apply - stay silent, there's more at stake. But then again, I'd expect the tournament to be refereed, especially if there's a decent prize. And if it's not, I'd expect the players to play honourably. But I suppose you'd have to agree that beforehand.


I think Robert Asprin made the comment about the game Dragon Poker, where he said it was more fair to expect each player to know the rules and manage his own game play, then to open up accusations and questions such as "he knew I should get this" or "he waited for the most opportune time to mention this" (see also: George Brett).
 
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A J
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I think it's automatic, so I personally would give it to that player if I noticed that they missed it. I don't really care to win the game based on someone missing that rule, but rather on my own optimal play. Not a satisfying win for me.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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russ wrote:
rickert wrote:
Unless I am teaching the game, I am not going to help someone beat me.

Huh? It's not helping someone beat you, it's making sure that the rules are correctly followed. Taking the noble is a required thing meant to happen automatically, not an optional choice or decision. Intentionally staying silent about a rule violation just because the violation benefits you seems pretty not in the spirit of gaming to me.

---

I'm with gillum on this; it's a meta-question what to do when people accidentally break the rules and it's noticed later.

The 2 usual possibilities are:

1. Rewind to correct the error. In easy cases to rewind, this seems pretty reasonable to me.

2. "If it's laid, it's played." I.e. the error occurred, shit happens, oh well, carry on with the game.

In practice, we often use policy 2. But no way would I misuse policy 2 to justify intentionally staying silent about a rule violation which benefitted me.


I think what you suggest is arbitrary and not fair to everyone. What if nobody notices until after the game is over? What if someone notices and helps that person win at the correct time but nobody notices that two turns ago someone else would have won by taking a noble they had earned? It seems to me the only fair thing is to make everyone aware of their own gameplay and responsibilities. Again, my only exception to that is when a player is new to the game. For experienced players, it keeps everyone's head in the game.
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Andy Burgess
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Of course it's not arbitrary - it can't be, it's part of the rules of the game. And it's certainly fair to everyone - it's not like you're deliberately noticing something for one player and pretending not to for another.

If no-one ever notices at all, then it doesn't actually matter, does it?
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Russ Williams
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rickert wrote:
It seems to me the only fair thing is to make everyone aware of their own gameplay and responsibilities.

"Responsibilities" suggests that you're (unconscously/emotionally?) thinking of it as some player's choice or decision or option, even though intellectually you know that it's something which is supposed to happen automatically. I.e. it's not some specific player's action or responsibility. You could even assign one specific player to be the "noble banker" and give the nobles to people as they earn them, analogous to a money banking player in many games taking money and giving change to players.

It's not about a player making good gameplay decisions; it's about ensuring that the game's procedures go smoothly as the rules explicitly intend and require.

In effect, it seems like you are playing with a house rule variant that taking a noble is optional instead of automatic. Which is OK if your group is cool with it, of course.
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Nobody in my group wants to police all the rules for everyone just so nobody misses a chance to better their own chances to win and that's how I have played every board and CCG for 30 years. If, in Magic for instance, a player has an enchantment that allows a player to gain a life for each damage a creature does to an opponent, then I expect that player to gain that life each time he is supposed to without my reminders. It is a rule but I don't believe the burden should be on me to help that player win. If I do remind one player but don't see it or think of it when it happens to another player, then is it fair to that second player? Absolutely not. But it is fair to both if both are reminded or neither is reminded. I choose neither.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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rickert wrote:
It is a rule but I don't believe the burden should be on me to help that player win.
First of all, you're not helping them win, you're helping them follow the rules of the game. From the tone of the conversation, it certainly sounds like you would have absolutely no issue pointing out an instance when someone is omitting a rule to their benefit, yet you would blissfully stay silent when someone is omitting a rule to your benefit. That doesn't sound as "fair" when you actually examine both sides of that particular coin.

Second of all, it's not a "burden," it's called "being a good opponent," and, even more to the point, "being a good person."
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Russ Williams
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rickert wrote:
Nobody in my group wants to police all the rules for everyone just so nobody misses a chance to better their own chances to win and that's how I have played every board and CCG for 30 years.

OK. And I've played for over 3 decades, and if I or people I play with see someone accidentally breaking a rule, we tell them, regardless of who it might help or hurt.

It's not about "policing"; I'm not saying that you should attentively check all possible details of every action every player does. But if you happen to notice a rule violation (as opposed to a stupid move), then I'm really surprised that you think it's fine to intentionally stay silent only if it benefits you.

It seems about like pointing out an error at the cashier only if the error costs you money, and intentionally staying silent if the error gives you money.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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No, you guys have figured me out. I am a bad gamer and a worse person. I have stupidly expected adults to follow the rules of a game themselves without a cop at the table. Must be why nobody in y gaming group wants to play with me.
 
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Russ Williams
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rickert wrote:
Nobody in my group wants to police all the rules


russ wrote:
It's not about "policing"; I'm not saying that you should attentively check all possible details of every action every player does. But if you happen to notice a rule violation (as opposed to a stupid move), then I'm really surprised that you think it's fine to intentionally stay silent only if it benefits you.


rickert wrote:
I have stupidly expected adults to follow the rules of a game themselves without a cop at the table.


shake
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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rickert wrote:
I have stupidly expected adults to follow the rules of a game themselves without a cop at the table.

At least the discussion has moved away from having the game designer at the table.
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Andy Burgess
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Ay ay ay.

Look, bottom line, if everyone you play with has the same outlook, follows the same meta-rules, takes responsibility for learning the intricacies of each game they play themselves, understands that all the players at the table are playing a win-at-all-costs strategy and also feel that this is just part of the game, then fine, you're golden. Who're we to tell you and your group how to play your games?

But if I was at that table, and someone did that to me, and it was clear that it was a deliberate "ha ha, I screwed you over, the rules said X and you forgot so I win", then I wouldn't be playing again. Which would probably be fine by you, given that we have such different attitudes to gaming, but I'd rather expand my circle of gamers all the time, which to me means making sure that everyone has a good time and that no-one feels shafted.

After all (for me) it's the game that's fun, not the winning. The winning is just a full stop, no matter who wins. And now we're not playing anymore. Who's up for the next game? Etc.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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MercifulBiscuit wrote:
Ay ay ay.

Look, bottom line, if everyone you play with has the same outlook, follows the same meta-rules, takes responsibility for learning the intricacies of each game they play themselves, understands that all the players at the table are playing a win-at-all-costs strategy and also feel that this is just part of the game, then fine, you're golden. Who're we to tell you and your group how to play your games?

But if I was at that table, and someone did that to me, and it was clear that it was a deliberate "ha ha, I screwed you over, the rules said X and you forgot so I win", then I wouldn't be playing again. Which would probably be fine by you, given that we have such different attitudes to gaming, but I'd rather expand my circle of gamers all the time, which to me means making sure that everyone has a good time and that no-one feels shafted.

After all (for me) it's the game that's fun, not the winning. The winning is just a full stop, no matter who wins. And now we're not playing anymore. Who's up for the next game? Etc.


I don't have anything even approaching a win at all costs attitude and know that the comment was just unnecessary. But if you don't care who wins, why keep score? We are all competitive. We all like to win. We don't ever cheat to do it. But we also don't say, "Man you should have done 'X' instead of 'Y' and you would have won that turn. So I quit and you win." That's not our idea of fun and fairness. Sorry that it is yours.
 
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