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Traders of Osaka» Forums » Rules

Subject: Discard for insurance question rss

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Evan Duly
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When you discard a card/s to insure goods, do all the cards you discard have to be from your hand or can you also discard cards from the face up cards in front of you?

We assumed that it was from our hand only and that is how we played, but I thought I would ask since I don't see it specifically mentioned in the rule book.

Thank you.
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Gillum the Stoor
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In the original Traders of Carthage, the corresponding term was "storage," and the rules said, "If you have cards with storage icons in your hand, you may store your Merchandise of the same color as the cards with the storage icons." (Emphasis added.)
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Tomello Visello
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EvanDevan wrote:
... or can you also discard cards from the face up cards in front of you?
Osaka rules may be less direct than the Carthage quote above, but still it would be difficult to conclude you could use the face up/merchandise cards ... because the only cards of the same color have already been discarded by the instructions immediately preceding the Insurance explanation.

You must discard all Merchandise of the same color (that are not insured – see next page) as the sunk ships.

You can't suddenly "repurpose" them.

 
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Nick Clinite
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TVis wrote:
EvanDevan wrote:
... or can you also discard cards from the face up cards in front of you?
Osaka rules may be less direct than the Carthage quote above, but still it would be difficult to conclude you could use the face up/merchandise cards ... because the only cards of the same color have already been discarded by the instructions immediately preceding the Insurance explanation.

You must discard all Merchandise of the same color (that are not insured – see next page) as the sunk ships.

You can't suddenly "repurpose" them.

Except it is quite evident in the insurance rules that insurance happens right before the Sunk By The Black Tide step, as the insurance rules state "Starting with the active player (the play who moved the ship[s] to Edo)".

I'm thinking you need to discard from your hand as well, but that is certainly a blind spot in the rulebook.
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Tomello Visello
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islan wrote:
I'm thinking you need to discard from your hand as well, but that is certainly a blind spot in the rulebook.
I don't see it as a blind spot. Page 3 of the rules defines merchandise. It does not include cards in your hand.

Place bought goods in front of you faceup. Sort them by color for convenience. These goods are called your Merchandise.

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Tomello Visello
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islan wrote:
TVis wrote:
EvanDevan wrote:
... or can you also discard cards from the face up cards in front of you?
Osaka rules may be less direct than the Carthage quote above, but still it would be difficult to conclude you could use the face up/merchandise cards ... because the only cards of the same color have already been discarded by the instructions immediately preceding the Insurance explanation.

You must discard all Merchandise of the same color (that are not insured – see next page) as the sunk ships.

You can't suddenly "repurpose" them.

Except it is quite evident in the insurance rules that insurance happens right before the Sunk By The Black Tide step, as the insurance rules state "Starting with the active player (the play who moved the ship[s] to Edo)".
I think you misinterpret. I could say that Sinking and Insurance happen simultaneously even though they get discussed in the rules sequentially. I have highlighted a phrase in the quote I have already given above to show the forward reference directing that Insurance procedures happen during the Sinking procedure.

Think about how much nicer this is than the real world. You don't have to waste resources protecting against a threat that does not happen. You get to invoke coverage right when the disaster happens.

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Nick Clinite
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TVis wrote:

I don't see it as a blind spot. Page 3 of the rules defines merchandise. It does not include cards in your hand.

Place bought goods in front of you faceup. Sort them by color for convenience. These goods are called your Merchandise.

That's not the blind-spot was I referring to. The blind-spot is that it doesn't explicitly say whether discarded cards for insurance come from your hand or from your Merchandise; and this is after they already used to word "discard" for Merchandise for the black tides.

TVis wrote:
I think you misinterpret. I could say that Sinking and Insurance happen simultaneously even though they get discussed in the rules sequentially. I have highlighted a phrase in the quote I have already given above to show the forward reference directing that Insurance procedures happen during the Sinking procedure.

Think about how much nicer this is than the real world. You don't have to waste resources protecting against a threat that does not happen. You get to invoke coverage right when the disaster happens.

I'm sorry, we seem to be misinterpreting each other, as I cannot seem to see how

TVis wrote:
it would be difficult to conclude you could use the face up/merchandise cards ... because the only cards of the same color have already been discarded by the instructions immediately preceding the Insurance explanation
could be interpreted as anything other than "the sunken merchandise cannot be discarded for insurance because they are already discarded." The Merchandise doesn't get discarded until after insurance, hence "You must discard all Merchandise of the same color (that are not insured". It's not like you discard them, then insure them, then get them back out of the discard pile.

But suffice to say, we seem to be in agreement--the Sunk By the Black Tide step happens, players go around insuring Merchandise by discarding cards from their hands (which the rulebook fails at explaining clearly), and any remaining uninsured Merchandise on the sunk ships get discarded.
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Steve S
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Just played this with my group tonight, and we interpreted the rule as that you could insure using cards from either location, since the rules don't specify where they have to come from, just that you have to discard a card.

However I can also see the argument it could be interpreted that goods on those ships were already lost, meaning there are no goods left to insure - except for those on ships that haven't made it to the "black tide" spots yet.

Honestly I think the rules are very ambiguous as written - I actually just sent an email to ZMan asking of they could provide clarification - we'll see if we get anything in response...

 
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Steve S
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OK, I did just now notice that if you expand the "description" part of the game page it appears somebody attempted to copy over most of the game instructions, and it does say there:

Quote:
After the payout, any ships that are in the two Pirate spaces are attacked. Affected players may now discards cards from their hand to protect their goods on those ships. Each card has either 2, 1 or no urns on them. When you discard a card with 2 urns, two goods of that color are protected from the pirates.
...which would indicate that the cards must come from your hand, but that you can choose to protect goods that are on the ships already in the "black tide" spots, before they are lost.

I guess we'll see if ZMan can verify this if/when they respond to the email...
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Gillum the Stoor
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As I said earlier, the rules for the original Traders of Carthage said to discard from hand.

The BGG description quoted came from ToC - you can tell that by the reference to pirates.

If one can also use face-up cards in ToO, that would be a unique (I believe) change from the original game.
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Steve S
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OK I did get a response back verifying:

Quote:
...
Insurance is part of the payment step and occurs when ships would sink. In reaction to a ship sinking, you may discard a card from your hand to ensure goods of that color. For each Insurance icon on the card you discard, you protect one good of that color.

E.g., the blue ship would sink and you have 3 blue goods in your merchandise (cards in front of you) . You discard a blue card with 2 Insurance icons. You rotate 2 of your blue goods to show they are protected until sold. Your other blue card is lost and discarded.

I hope to have answered your questions. Should you have any further questions, do not hesitate to get in touch with me.

Kind regards,

Jean-François "J.-F." Gagné
Z-Man Manager
[Edit]
Also he attached a copy of the latest rulebook, and I just noticed under the Insurance section it now states the following (which neither the manual in the box, or the one currently available for download at the ZMan website, has):

Quote:
To insure a good, a player must discard a card with one or more Insurance icons from their hand
So I'll have to see if the most recent manual updated to BGG shows this and if not see if I can get the OK to upload the one he forwarded to me...

[Edit 2]
Request to upload the manual to BGG has been denied, however he said he'd contact someone to have it done.
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Tomello Visello
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I have viewed PDF files of 2 versions of the rules, which can be identified by their differing copyright information. I have relevant quotes here regarding the Insurance section from each in order to show the improvement.

Quote:
Starting with the active player (the player who moved the ship[s] to Edo) and proceeding clockwise, each player may insure as many goods as he or she is able. To insure a good, a player must discard a card with one or more Insurance icons; for each Insurance icon depicted on a discarded card, a player may insure one good of the same color as the discarded card.

English edition © 2008, 2015 F2Z Entertainment Inc
Quote:
Starting with the active player (the player who moved the ship[s] to Edo) and proceeding clockwise, each player may insure as many goods as they can. To insure a good, a player must discard a card with one or more Insurance icons from their hand; for each Insurance icon depicted on a discarded card, a player may insure one good of the same color as the discarded card.

English Edition © 2016 F2Z Entertainment Inc

 
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