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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Rules

Subject: 6 Player Suggestions rss

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Alan Smithee
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So, from what I've read, most people aren't that impressed by the 6-player variant rules, and I can see why. For the record, those rules are:

Monsters gain 2 additional hit points
Monsters gain 1 speed
Monsters gain 2 damage

The hit points seem fine, but having the monster hit far more often for much more damage just makes the game more streaky and capricious. It's quite possible, especially for the first quarter of the monsters, to instantly one shot you easily regardless of where you're hit. This is not exactly the height of game design. Anyone familiar with other similar situations will tell you that flat bonuses to stats usually don't work to balance this sort of thing.

The rules we are using are currently:
The monsters gain +2 hit points
In the middle of every survivor turn, the monster has a 50% chance to take an immediate additional turn.

The basic idea here was to give the monster the same amount of additional activations as adding two more survivors gives the players. However, the balance isn't exact because the survivors still have more extra hit points, and also the monster may get lucky (or unlucky) on its extra rolls. From what I've seen so far, even giving the monster double the activations might not be as punishing as the base rules. I am currently considering giving the monsters an additional +2 hit points.

That said, I'm open to other ideas. For the rest of you out there, what kinds of things have you done to balance the game for 6?
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Richard Arnold
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New York
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My six player group is just playing with the normal rules, no changes to the four player game. Having to kit out two more survivors is tough enough and with a group of six going on hunts, the odds of the full party reaching the monster seem low. We lost three to events last hunt.

We figure when the level ones get too easy, we'll take on the stat boosts for hunting level two monsters.
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Chengkai Yang
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You gain more endeavors with 6 people, this has a pretty big impact, as can salvaging kits - 10 resources from a lvl 1 lion. Even 10 early on from finding the lion cub is pretty huge. that said, you have a lot of people with some pretty meh gear for a long time.

That said, I think giving the monster more AI cards to be a much better approach. Leave the speed and damage unchanged but add +1 A card per player past 4 and +1B card. so 3 more AI cards, 2 of which are A for a lvl 1. This increases the likely hood for much more destructive actions without instagibbing people left and right. Might want to do 2 or 3B cards instead of the 1/1 or 2/1 if the previous is too easy. In the event of no A cards to add, give it 1.5 per missing, rounding down. Haven't ran into this issue yet so cant comment on if you should round up or down.
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Joseph Nudi
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draxx01 wrote:
You gain more endeavors with 6 people, this has a pretty big impact, as can salvaging kits - 10 resources from a lvl 1 lion. Even 10 early on from finding the lion cub is pretty huge. that said, you have a lot of people with some pretty meh gear for a long time.

That said, I think giving the monster more AI cards to be a much better approach. Leave the speed and damage unchanged but add +1 A card per player past 4 and +1B card. so 3 more AI cards, 2 of which are A for a lvl 1. This increases the likely hood for much more destructive actions without instagibbing people left and right. Might want to do 2 or 3B cards instead of the 1/1 or 2/1 if the previous is too easy. In the event of no A cards to add, give it 1.5 per missing, rounding down. Haven't ran into this issue yet so cant comment on if you should round up or down.
I'm not near my set, but I thought that Salvage kits were Unique or otherwise that you could only have one of them. But I'm not certain.

Haven't tried the six player variant yet however. If we have too many folks we get two separate KDs going at the same time instead.
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Alan Smithee
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Yesterday was our first game, so it had not occurred to me that there are actually enough AI cards to add more to the deck. My only problem with that is, the more AI cards you add, the less unique each encountered monster becomes. I would almost rather just add more generic wounds to keep the monsters distinctive.
 
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Alan Smithee
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draxx01 wrote:
You gain more endeavors with 6 people, this has a pretty big impact, as can salvaging kits - 10 resources from a lvl 1 lion. Even 10 early on from finding the lion cub is pretty huge. that said, you have a lot of people with some pretty meh gear for a long time.

That said, I think giving the monster more AI cards to be a much better approach. Leave the speed and damage unchanged but add +1 A card per player past 4 and +1B card. so 3 more AI cards, 2 of which are A for a lvl 1. This increases the likely hood for much more destructive actions without instagibbing people left and right. Might want to do 2 or 3B cards instead of the 1/1 or 2/1 if the previous is too easy. In the event of no A cards to add, give it 1.5 per missing, rounding down. Haven't ran into this issue yet so cant comment on if you should round up or down.
You possibly gain more endeavors with more people, but if you manage to balance the difficulty appropriately this may not be a problem, since more survivors may die to hunt events or the encounter. Sure, you get more dead, and so more graves/cannibalism, but this can be a problem too. The settlement only has so many people in it.
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Blueskew wrote:
I'm not near my set, but I thought that Salvage kits were Unique or otherwise that you could only have one of them.
Yep. Unique.
 
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Alan Smithee
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What is a salvage kit please?
 
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Damien M
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It's a craftable item from the Barber Surgeon.
 
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C M
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osunightfall wrote:
So, from what I've read...
Why not try it out a couple times the way it's written and then make changes from there if you think you need to.
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Alan Smithee
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Normally I would, but in this case I have not found one single solitary soul in all my readings who has tried it and recommends it. Will you be the first?

Since we wanted to gain an attachment to our settlement from first to last, it seemed safer to start potentially low and increase the difficulty rather than wipe instantly on the butcher or some such due to "damage crunch".

Simple math would seem to indicate that two survivors does not make up for 1 speed and 2 strength, or even close.
 
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James DeYarman
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Iowa
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I have played with 5 Survivors against a level 1 White Lion, we gave it +1 speed and 2 life but left out the +2 damage condition as it seemed way too lethal per hit. It was a successful fight with only one serious injury, pretty much the same as our previous lion showdown using 4 Survivors.
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Ryan Bee
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I've played with the 6 player variant as is, and it's exactly as suicidal as it seems. We managed to escape the prologue with only one death (first turn, the monster charged forward and autokilled someone, but we got lucky afterwards and only took nonlethal serious wounds). The first hunt, we lost 4 players and only won because we threw every founders stone we had at it. We lost one player on the way to events, and the rest to the never ending sequence of serious wounds it inflicts. A group of experienced players of the game with a solid idea of their intended tactics, good coordination, and decent luck will still be worse off than if they had 4 players, but might at least make a go of it. For new players, there is no hope of making it any significant length of time in the campaign.

The math, for anyone interested:
Default White Lion vs Uninjured Player, standard attack
2 attacks, 90% chance to hit, 1 damage each = 2 total damage. No chance of death, if both attacks hit in the head 1 can be dodged, ensuring worst case is heavy wound. Total HP pool vs monster before serious wounds are inflicted is 11, monster deals 2 damage per round.

6 Player White Lion vs Uninjured Player, standard attack
3 attacks, 90% chance to hit, 3 damage each = 9 total damage (4.5x higher). Chance of hitting with at least 1 attack = 99.9%, chance to inflict at least 1 severe wound = 83.25%. Total HP pool vs monster before serious wounds are inflicted is effectively 1 (waist), monster deals 3 serious wounds per turn regardless of hit location after that location is hit, and deals serious wounds to all other locations in the meantime.

Meanwhile, the extra 2 players, hitting with speed 2 and a 7+, then needing presumably 6+ to wound, deal approx. .32 damage per turn, so assuming both of the extra players are present, and assuming they are in range and capable of attacking every turn, it takes a total of 10 extra player turns (5 rounds of combat, or 10 if you are playing w/ 5 players) before they even out the bonus life granted by their presence.

This does not account for the extra chance for traps, says nothing of AOE attacks by the monster, and assumes you actually make it to the combat with any extra survivors at all. It also does not take into account extra endeavors, the possibility of bonus resources (either through cannibalize or whatever else), and other factors that swing things in the player's direction.

However, note that the bonus resources will have a hard time paying for the equipment needs of the additional players (assuming a goal of 5 equipment slots filled and 2 resources per slot, it's 10 additional resources they need to generate, or 10 lost survivors minus bonuses granted by events or whatever else. This is to say nothing of the fact that lost survivors generate basic resources and most decent equipment requires non basic resources). Also note that similarly, the bonus endeavors are likely to be consumed on intimacy events. If even one of the 2 extra players die (if one person dies who would not have under standard rules), the act of maintaining a stable population eliminates the other endeavor.

All of this talks only about the beginning, but the additional lethality feeds on itself. Routine deaths lead to underexperienced and underequipped survivors who are worse off than even a standard party when they face off on the heavier hitters, who then in turn are substantially more lethal than normal due not to the static bonuses any more, but rather because the development of survivors has been artificially retarded.

tl;dr: The 6 player variant is insane and is not recommended for anyone, at any time. The only thing more insane is the 5 player variant. If you have more than 4 people who want to play, either figure out a shift system or consign yourself to a doomed settlement.
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