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Caverna: The Cave Farmers» Forums » Variants

Subject: "Move to the front" turn order idea rss

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Chad Weisshaar
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Colorado
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I'd like to change the "Staring player" action to move that player to the start of the turn order while leaving the rest of the turn order unchanged (like Caylus) instead of going clockwise from the new starting player.

So if the starting turn order was Red, Green, Blue, Yellow and Blue takes starting player, the new turn order would be Blue, Red, Green, Yellow instead of Blue, Yellow, Red, Green.

I have two questions about this idea:
1) What should the starting food bonus look like? It is currently 1,1,2,3,3,3,3,3 in clockwise order. But it feels to me like the players later in the turn order should get more food since it may take them longer to get up near the front of the line.
2) In Caylus, multiple players can use the starting player action (to be second/third in the new order). Should multiple players be able to take "Starting player"? Or maybe just be allowed to imitate it?

I'd really like feedback on this idea. It bothers me that you can be last again the very next turn after taking starting player, but I want to keep the game balanced.

Thanks for your help!
 
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ArrBeeDee Dial
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I get the impression from your post that you are giving out 'player turn order food' every round. If so, this is wrong - players only get food for turn order at the beginning of the game.

Yes, you can go from last to start to last if the person next to you takes the SP on the next round. You must retake it. In our plays, it seldom happens as people try to focus and not 'waste' a placement.

You want to take SP strategically.

As far as 'multiple-use & complex turn order changes', I don't like it. The game is enough (for me) without it. I think adding *lets figure out the turn order* decision to the refill process would be too much maintenance. Even if you added markers or flags, no thanks.

Additionally, the SP space rewards wouldn't be balanced if multiple people could take it. If you blocked me, I could just go there even if it didn't change the order because I would get a strong reward.
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Andy Kerrison
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Exeter
Devon
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It would make start player significantly more powerful an action, since you would would only slowly drop down the turn order instead of being at the mercy of whoever picked it next, You would want to reduce the rewards by 1 or something to compensate for this.

Starting food won't make or break the game, so I'd leave it as is and see how it plays out before fine tuning that.
 
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Chad Weisshaar
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Raujour wrote:
I get the impression from your post that you are giving out 'player turn order food' every round. If so, this is wrong - players only get food for turn order at the beginning of the game.
I am only giving the turn order food at the start of the game, I'm just thinking that the values might need to change if I try this variant.


Raujour wrote:
As far as 'multiple-use & complex turn order changes', I don't like it. The game is enough (for me) without it. I think adding *lets figure out the turn order* decision to the refill process would be too much maintenance. Even if you added markers or flags, no thanks.
I'd use a system like Caylus/Age of Empires III where there is a turn order track.

Raujour wrote:
Additionally, the SP space rewards wouldn't be balanced if multiple people could take it. If you blocked me, I could just go there even if it didn't change the order because I would get a strong reward.
That is an interesting point. I'd never considered it very strong myself, but I'll have to consider that issue.

Andy_K wrote:
It would make start player significantly more powerful an action, since you would would only slowly drop down the turn order instead of being at the mercy of whoever picked it next, You would want to reduce the rewards by 1 or something to compensate for this.
That is a good point.
 
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A very interesting idea. It would make the place more powerful in theory. In practice, it depends on the makeup of the players.

The Caylus effect is already a LITTLE in effect from a psychology standpoint. Assume clockwise rotation, where the player to the left of first player is second player. The people MOST LIKELY to take first player away from the first player are the people to the right of the first player. If this is what happens, the turn order effectively DOES shift down. This is not completely true of course, and it totally breaks if the second player is competing heavily for spaces with player 1 (not a huge issue with the imitate spots). Also, if the player TWO to the right grabs first player, then the new second player just got a huge boon and paid nothing for it.

It is the thing that bothers me the most about Caverna. That and the 6 billion tiles with tiny print that have to be legible by all players all the time. I will definitely make some cheatsheets for them... soon (TM). With our lazy gaming group, the winner is almost always the person sitting closest to the building tiles because they can read them all the time and buy the best ones for their strategies first.
 
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ryan echternacht
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I'm obviously reviving a dead thread, but I just had this conversation with a friend last night, and this was exactly the idea I was discussing.

Andy_K wrote:
It would make start player significantly more powerful an action, since you would would only slowly drop down the turn order instead of being at the mercy of whoever picked it next.
^ This is why I think it matters. There is nothing more frustrating than taking player 1, only to have the person in 2nd take it and you go from first to last, through no real fault of your own. Or to have 1 player benefit strongly from constantly getting to go 2nd through no skill other than who he/she is sitting next to.

In a 3p game, I find it matters less, but in 4p+, it can be pretty rough to be constantly pushed to the end in turn order through other players actions.

For how high skill this game is, turn order is (in my opinion) it's largest flaw.
 
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Chad Weisshaar
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Colorado
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I have played several games with this variant. I ended up giving the players later in the initial turn order more food. This is to account for the fact that it is harder to recover from a late turn order. If you want to move up, you have to take staring player, not just wait for someone else to do it.
Original: 1st,2nd = 1 food. 3rd = 2 food. 4th+ = 3 food.
New: 1st = 1, 2nd = 2, 3rd = 3, 4th = 4, 5th+ = 5.

I have also had a new idea regarding this kind of turn order mechanism: When a player takes the "starting player" action, they become first; then the rest of the players are randomly assigned 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.

Of course this still means the turn order probably wont be clockwise. And it has the flaw of potentially going from first to last in one round. But it does solve the problem of rewarding the player sitting next to the new starting player.

It also doesn't change the game as much, so you don't have to worry about the starting food or changing the value of the starting player tile.
 
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