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Subject: Race of Nations Android app. rss

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Eric Daniels
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I was just curious if anyone knew for sure one way or the other is the TtA clone Android app Race of Nations is a unlicensed work. It seems odd to me that such a blatant ripoff would be allowed to stand if it was completely unlicensed. I don't want give the developer any money if it is, but it seems really well put together so if it is licensed in some way I'd love to be able to play it guilt free.
 
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If it were licensed I can't see why they'd not use the name of the game, so it almost certainly isn't. However I can't say with 100% certainty.
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Walter Kolczynski
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CGE is coming out with an official digital version (of the new version) within the next few months. Board Game Arena and Boardgaming-Online both also have official sanction for their browser-based versions. BGO will have the option to play the new version soon, but I don't know if there are such plans for BGA.
 
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Ericus1 wrote:
I was just curious if anyone knew for sure one way or the other is the TtA clone Android app Race of Nations is a unlicensed work. It seems odd to me that such a blatant ripoff would be allowed to stand if it was completely unlicensed. I don't want give the developer any money if it is, but it seems really well put together so if it is licensed in some way I'd love to be able to play it guilt free.
It is most definitely a ripoff. Do not give them any money.
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Paul Grogan
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This was discussed a while back, when the app first came out. It is a completely unlicensed ripoff, and they changed just enough names for it to be legal.
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Bitchy Little Boy
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Ericus1 wrote:
It seems odd to me that such a blatant ripoff would be allowed to stand if it was completely unlicensed.
It is legal because ideas are not protected by copyright. But is it moral (i.e. in your own best interest)? Not likely, I should say...
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Ryan Thompson

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PaulGrogan wrote:
This was discussed a while back, when the app first came out. It is a completely unlicensed ripoff, and they changed just enough names for it to be legal.
When someone produces something that someone else is either too slow or not willing to do, I consider it a good idea.

Maybe if people stop ignoring Android and acting like Apple is the only game in town Apps like this wouldn't need to exist...
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Jonathan Challis
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Kassanova wrote:

When someone produces something that someone else is either too slow or not willing to do, I consider it a good idea.
I consider it Piracy.

Kassanova wrote:

Maybe if people stop ignoring Android and acting like Apple is the only game in town Apps like this wouldn't need to exist...
So maybe the IP owner just doesn't like Android, and wants to shaft them deliberately? He has every right to, it's their IP. You have no right to have anything made available on the platform of your choice, or indeed any platform.
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Bitchy Little Boy
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Kelanen wrote:
So maybe the IP owner just doesn't like Android, and wants to shaft them deliberately? He has every right to, it's their IP. You have no right to have anything made available on the platform of your choice, or indeed any platform.
This is precisely why it is a good thing it is legal to provide an alternative implementation of the idea.
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gmilitaru wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
So maybe the IP owner just doesn't like Android, and wants to shaft them deliberately? He has every right to, it's their IP. You have no right to have anything made available on the platform of your choice, or indeed any platform.
This is precisely why it is a good thing it is legal to provide an alternative implementation of the idea.
I disagree utterly. Whoever created it, owns it (legally and morally). There is no public right to it at all.

The problem with the internet generation is that that feel they have a right to anything they want, just because it exists...
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Kelanen wrote:
gmilitaru wrote:
Kelanen wrote:
So maybe the IP owner just doesn't like Android, and wants to shaft them deliberately? He has every right to, it's their IP. You have no right to have anything made available on the platform of your choice, or indeed any platform.
This is precisely why it is a good thing it is legal to provide an alternative implementation of the idea.
I disagree utterly. Whoever created it, owns it (legally and morally). There is no public right to it at all.

The problem with the internet generation is that that feel they have a right to anything they want, just because it exists...
It's not piracy, they changed enough to make it legal as has already been stated.

If CGE wanted money they would have made a Android app to compete. Competition is a beautiful thing, keeps people from sitting on their collective arses.
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CGE are... right now... As we speak.. working on the app, and it will be for iOS and Android.

And they are working hard on it so it as good as it can be.

Yes, technically, this other app is not Piracy because they changed a few of the card names, but it is still a total copy. They literally stole someone else's game in its entirety, changed a few names and put it out as their own.

And Vlaada is probably still awake right night working on some coding, or the AI, or the campaign, or something. He works very hard, and usually well into the night.
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Kassanova wrote:

It's not piracy, they changed enough to make it legal as has already been stated.
Legal is not moral.

Kassanova wrote:

If CGE wanted money they would have made a Android app to compete. Competition is a beautiful thing, keeps people from sitting on their collective arses.
Disagree again - but then I'm anti most monopoly rulings too...
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Kelanen wrote:
Kassanova wrote:

It's not piracy, they changed enough to make it legal as has already been stated.
Legal is not moral.

Kassanova wrote:

If CGE wanted money they would have made a Android app to compete. Competition is a beautiful thing, keeps people from sitting on their collective arses.
Disagree again - but then I'm anti most monopoly rulings too...
Considering you can play the actual real game online for free with a PC, I fail to see the big deal with a Free Android app fulfilling a niche that CGE is not currently filling.

If CGE fills the Niche I'll buy but if not I'll look for other sources. I own Galaxy Trucker for Android, see they filled the need, I don't own TTA Android because they are as of yet not fulling the need.
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Kassanova wrote:
Considering you can play the actual real game online for free with a PC, I fail to see the big deal with a Free Android app fulfilling a niche that CGE is not currently filling.
Those who put out the actual real game online for free got permission from the creator. That's the difference.

Kassanova wrote:
If CGE fills the Niche I'll buy but if not I'll look for other sources. I own Galaxy Trucker for Android, see they filled the need, I don't own TTA Android because they are as of yet not fulling the need.
So if McDonald's is not in a particular city, and someone puts one up without permission from the license owner, is that okay, because McDonald's is not filling that need?

I keep seeing people trying to justify piracy. Even if this particular Android app is changed enough to not be illegal, the reasons I see being put out are not about whether it's changed enough; it's whether it's okay to just take someone else's product and publish it. Why do we feel that is okay?
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aliallison wrote:
I keep seeing people trying to justify piracy. Even if this particular Android app is changed enough to not be illegal, the reasons I see being put out are not about whether it's changed enough; it's whether it's okay to just take someone else's product and publish it. Why do we feel that is okay?
There's a balance between the value of compensating content creators or giving them control over their work, and the value of enabling the reuse and adaptation of other people's ideas. Generally, intellectual property gets in the way of content creation, and the people who "own" the intellectual property in turn used the ideas of others who came before them. No one in the last hundred years has created a board game without being influenced by previous board games. So different people end up balancing these two important principles differently.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
aliallison wrote:
I keep seeing people trying to justify piracy. Even if this particular Android app is changed enough to not be illegal, the reasons I see being put out are not about whether it's changed enough; it's whether it's okay to just take someone else's product and publish it. Why do we feel that is okay?
There's a balance between the value of compensating content creators or giving them control over their work, and the value of enabling the reuse and adaptation of other people's ideas. Generally, intellectual property gets in the way of content creation, and the people who "own" the intellectual property in turn used the ideas of others who came before them. No one in the last hundred years has created a board game without being influenced by previous board games. So different people end up balancing these two important principles differently.
I agree, but there is a difference between being inspired by a previous product and outright copying one.

If someone created a new game inspired by Through the Ages, that would be totally okay, and as you said, happens all the time in pretty much all areas. But if someone takes Through the Ages and just copies it without permission and distributes the product, that is not okay. And just because the owner does not properly distribute the product doesn't mean anyone else can. Otherwise, people would be printing and selling Glory to Rome.

The point I was making is that I see comments that justify the copy and distribution of content without the owner's permission, and I don't see how that is justifiable. And I'm not talking about specific legalities, as I don't know the law; I'm asking about ethics and morality.
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aliallison wrote:
The point I was making is that I see comments that justify the copy and distribution of content without the owner's permission, and I don't see how that is justifiable. And I'm not talking about specific legalities, as I don't know the law; I'm asking about ethics and morality.
I'm not sure if you are actually trying to understand what other people think, or if you just are trying to prove them wrong. There are certainly people who think all kinds of things; there are people who think that copyright is immoral because information content has zero cost to copy and therefore there should be no limits on copying it. They think this is more important than compensating content creators. This doesn't seem "right" or "wrong", it is just a different point of view. You must have heard of the Free Software Movement, for example.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
aliallison wrote:
The point I was making is that I see comments that justify the copy and distribution of content without the owner's permission, and I don't see how that is justifiable. And I'm not talking about specific legalities, as I don't know the law; I'm asking about ethics and morality.
I'm not sure if you are actually trying to understand what other people think, or if you just are trying to prove them wrong. There are certainly people who think all kinds of things; there are people who think that copyright is immoral because information content has zero cost to copy and therefore there should be no limits on copying it. They think this is more important than compensating content creators. This doesn't seem "right" or "wrong", it is just a different point of view. You must have heard of the Free Software Movement, for example.
A little of both, I suppose. I saw what one person wrote, in that since there was no app, it's okay for someone to just take the game and make an app and distribute it without permission. I think this is wrong and made a counterargument as to why (the McDonald's example).

I checked the link for the Free Software Movement, and while I have no problem with those joining the movement and letting their own software be free, it is wrong to take someone else's software and distribute without permission. This is the same as one supporting socialism or communism, believing that material possessions should belong to all. One can believe in this, but it's still wrong to just take someone else's property.

Are there other justifications in taking someone's property without permission?
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The law is the lowest common denominator. If it is legal, it does not mean it should be done. It is simply that each of us is entitled to act according to his or her conscience.

As a personal option, I shall not deprive the copyright owners of any money in this case, but this is because of its specific circumstances. On the other hand, I have no qualms using Linux for free on my computers since I think both I and the developers are both morally and legally in the right. I am not sure many would consider Rex: Final Days of an Empire piracy because it bypasses the copyrights for Dune.

On the other hand, I do consider immoral to refuse a reprint of a game with potentially sufficient demand just because the copyright owner may legally decide that. In such a case, I would have no moral reservation to support any legal alternative.

 
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aliallison wrote:
This is the same as one supporting socialism or communism, believing that material possessions should belong to all. One can believe in this, but it's still wrong to just take someone else's property.
If you think that socialism and communism are "wrong", then there's little chance you are going to be able to understand contrary points of view. I don't think it's worth your time or mine for me to continue trying to explain to you that different people have different, equally valid ethical systems to your own.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:

If you think that socialism and communism are "wrong", then there's little chance you are going to be able to understand contrary points of view. I don't think it's worth your time or mine for me to continue trying to explain to you that different people have different, equally valid ethical systems to your own.
If you think those are equally valid, then I agree there's no point in further discussion...
 
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aliallison wrote:
Kassanova wrote:
Considering you can play the actual real game online for free with a PC, I fail to see the big deal with a Free Android app fulfilling a niche that CGE is not currently filling.
Those who put out the actual real game online for free got permission from the creator. That's the difference.

Kassanova wrote:
If CGE fills the Niche I'll buy but if not I'll look for other sources. I own Galaxy Trucker for Android, see they filled the need, I don't own TTA Android because they are as of yet not fulling the need.
So if McDonald's is not in a particular city, and someone puts one up without permission from the license owner, is that okay, because McDonald's is not filling that need?

I keep seeing people trying to justify piracy. Even if this particular Android app is changed enough to not be illegal, the reasons I see being put out are not about whether it's changed enough; it's whether it's okay to just take someone else's product and publish it. Why do we feel that is okay?
No, I would go to Wendy's or Carl's Jr since they both would be smart enough to fill the need.

Know what annoys me? People actin like Apple is the only game in town when it isn't and neglecting other operating systems.
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Kassanova wrote:
aliallison wrote:
Kassanova wrote:
Considering you can play the actual real game online for free with a PC, I fail to see the big deal with a Free Android app fulfilling a niche that CGE is not currently filling.
Those who put out the actual real game online for free got permission from the creator. That's the difference.

Kassanova wrote:
If CGE fills the Niche I'll buy but if not I'll look for other sources. I own Galaxy Trucker for Android, see they filled the need, I don't own TTA Android because they are as of yet not fulling the need.
So if McDonald's is not in a particular city, and someone puts one up without permission from the license owner, is that okay, because McDonald's is not filling that need?

I keep seeing people trying to justify piracy. Even if this particular Android app is changed enough to not be illegal, the reasons I see being put out are not about whether it's changed enough; it's whether it's okay to just take someone else's product and publish it. Why do we feel that is okay?
No, I would go to Wendy's or Carl's Jr since they both would be smart enough to fill the need.

Know what annoys me? People actin like Apple is the only game in town when it isn't and neglecting other operating systems.
How is this even an Android vs Apple issue? It's not available for either legitimately.

Did I miss something?
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Kassanova wrote:

[q="Kassanova"]If CGE fills the Niche I'll buy but if not I'll look for
No, I would go to Wendy's or Carl's Jr since they both would be smart enough to fill the need.

Know what annoys me? People actin like Apple is the only game in town when it isn't and neglecting other operating systems.
Will you please stop suggesting that CGE are not smart enough to fill the need. CGE and Vlaada are right now developing the app. Properly. Not some cheap version, but they are spending a lot of time to make sure it is good. And they are developing it for Android too. They are not neglecting other operating systems.

Race of Nations is a complete copy, done without the permission of the owner, with a few names changed so that it isn't illegal. But that doesn't make it right.
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