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Subject: Thief rules. (preproduction) rss

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Brian Hamilton
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I couldn't find it on the PNP rulebook

Patrick Leder on kickstarter page:
So right now the Thief is dividing up 9 points between Movement, Stealth, and Thievery (Actions).
What we were doing is having the Thief roll a die that has 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4 at the end of each turn (and the game start) and placing the die on Movement, Stealth, and Thievery (Actions). When their turn starts they divide up the remaining points on the other 2 stats. All the die was doing was making the player telegraph part of their coming turn to the other players.
It didn't really have that big of an impact on the game so we just dropped in favor of assigning 2, 3, 4 to one stat each. As the Thief improves the 2, 3, or 4 token can be flipped to a higher value, so you might have 3, 3, 4 after an improvement. The player can also improve each individually so +1 Stealth means your Stealth is always 1 higher.
The other die the Thief had can just be a regular die.


Tokens are much better than die for actions! thumbsup
Can you talk a little bit about the different (Thievery) actions and how they work? Card based or just standard steal action?
Is the thief player trying to steal crystals only?
How does Stealth work?

Any ideas on 'variants' for thief vs ______?
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Kyle
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Without getting too far into the specifics...

The Thief uses his actions to...
...grab treasures and dragon gems (not crystals)
...pick the locks on vaults (a new type of tile added into the stack)
...pickpocket other players (steal a treasure from the Knight, reset a Greed token, etc.)
...backstab players with damaging effects
...set up a Charm, which can protect you from death

The actions have varying costs and most have different "levels", so by spending multiple actions at once you can increase the strength of the effect or increase your chance of success when you perform the action.


Stealth determines how easy it is for other players to find the Thief, either when the Thief tries to pickpocket someone or if the other player tries to take out the thief. Each other player has a perception value that they can increase in different ways, and if it beats the Thief's stealth they'll find him.


We haven't dug into all of the variants for the Thief yet, but for the most part it can add directly on to any of the existing variants (in the latest rules) as an extra player.
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Brian Hamilton
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Ohh vaults sound..Sweet!
Backstabbing..Yes!

So excited for this game.

Let us know if you need us to brainstorm for (variant) ideas.
 
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Brian Hamilton
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Pumped for more Trove artwork too
 
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Patrick Leder
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I feel like some people expect us to stick to whatever rules we release (even though the Goblins have changed a great deal since the start), so I am cautious about releasing rules now.

The die went beyond just showing what was there. The player would roll it and then have to decide how they were going to use it at the end of the turn (and the beginning of the game). In this way the player is telegraphing part of their turn to the other players so they can stay far enough away or raise their perception enough.

Anyway the tokens is cheaper and easier to make. No one was making decisions based on the die so its an easy thing to drop. Maybe they will when they have played a few times.

Also the improvements are much cleaner with the Tokens.
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neko flying
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I backed the Kickstarter but I am a bit out of the loop. What will the Thief's victory condition be?
 
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Kyle
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flying_neko wrote:
I backed the Kickstarter but I am a bit out of the loop. What will the Thief's victory condition be?
Collecting treasure.
 
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Patrick Leder
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Currently the goal is to bring back to the entrance 6 Treasure. That feels about right in my games but I need to see him more in low player count games. The number could change.

In two drafts ago he had these mission cards that counted as treasure while the text on them was true, but it felt fiddly and hard to test so we abandoned them.

6 is good. To win he will have to push it once or twice by bringing in multiple treasures.
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Kyle
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Patrick said it was okay to post this, so here are the current (full) rules for the Thief.

Please keep in mind that this is not 100% final, so there may still be changes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

THIEF

The Thief is an additional player role that allows for up to five players at once, or it can be used as an extra player with any other combination of player numbers and roles.

The Thief always takes its turn after the Cave. The turn order for all roles is as follows:
1) Knight --> 2) Goblins --> 3) Dragon --> 4) Cave --> 5) Thief


How to Win
Acquire and stash 6 treasures to break the Thief’s undying curse.


Setup
Take the Thief piece, the Action die (Gray), and the 3 stat tokens and place them near your player board. Add the Treasure Troves to the Cave’s supply. Place the Charm marker near the Charm Matrix and place all of your other tokens in the supply space on your board. Shuffle the Perception deck and place it near your board.

When setting up the Cave, randomly remove 3 tiles from the game before adding Crystal tiles. When adding Crystal tiles, also add 2 Treasure Vault tiles to each stack. When a Vault is revealed, place a Vault marker on it. Only you may interact with it (refer to the Actions section for details).


On Your Turn
At the start of your turn, collect all 3 Stat Tokens and reassign them to the Movement, Stealth, or Thievery spaces on your player board. All 3 tokens should be set with the gray side showing, unless they have been upgraded (refer to the Upgrades section for more details). The chosen values remain in effect until your next turn.
[Starting token values are: 4, 3, 2. The 3 and 2 can be upgraded (flipped) to increase their values by 1.]

The Movement value is the total number of spaces you can move through during your turn. You may move freely between Lit and Dark tiles and may pass through spaces occupied by other players, but you cannot cross walls or other impassible terrain without spending Actions. If you end your movement on a Dark tile, you may peek at it (without showing any other players) and/or you may choose to reveal it.

The Stealth value determines how well you can remain hidden. It is not used when moving, but is required when interacting with other players. Refer to the Perception section for more details.

The Thievery value determines the number of actions you have available for the turn. After setting the value, take an equal number of Action Tokens from your supply. Refer to the Actions section for details on how to use these tokens.


Perception
When you attempt to interact with another player by targeting them with an action, or another player attempts to interact with you by searching during their turn, the other player reveals their Perception card and compares the value to your Stealth. If the player doesn’t have a Perception card their card value is considered 0. Regardless of the result, the Perception card is discarded after comparing values.
[16 Perception cards, with values weighted low: one P4, three P3, five P2, seven P1.]

If your Stealth is higher than their Perception, you remain hidden and unharmed. If it is your turn, you may then target that player with a Pickpocket or Backstab action.

If their Perception is equal to or higher than your Stealth, you may attempt to use a Charm (refer to the Charm section for details). If you do not have a Charm set, or if it is refused, you are killed. Any treasures you were carrying are dropped in your current space and the Thief piece is removed from the map. At the start of your next turn, place the Thief piece on the entrance tile. (The Thief is cursed to be undying, and must keep returning to gather more treasure until the curse is lifted.)


Other Players
Other players can gain Perception cards and interact with the Thief in the following ways:

The Knight may place a Hero Token on the Thief’s player board to draw 2 Perception cards. She chooses 1 to keep, then returns the other to the bottom of the deck. The Hero Token is returned to the Knight (and is available to use immediately) during the Reset Tokens phase of her next turn. The Knight may search for the Thief as an Encounter while in the same space. When comparing values, add 1 to the Knight’s Perception value for each Hero Token currently assigned to the Torch space, even if she does not have a Perception card (Treasures that provide additional Encounters do not increase Perception).

Any Goblin Tribe on the map may draw 1 Perception card instead of taking any other actions. One or more Goblin Tribes may search for the Thief (at the same time) by ending their Move actions in the same space as the Thief. When comparing values, add 1 to the Goblins’ Perception value if 2 Tribes search, or add 2 if all 3 Tribes search. Regardless of the result, the Tribes involved do not Scatter.

The Dragon may discard any number of Power cards to draw an equal number of Perception cards. It chooses 1 to keep, then returns the others to the bottom of the deck. The Dragon may search for the Thief by using the Claw or Scratch abilities, as if it was targeting the Knight. When comparing values, add 2 to the Dragon’s Perception value if it uses the Scratch ability.

The Cave may use Soporific Spores to kill the Thief, but must spend 4 Omen tokens (total) of the correct types to do so. No Perception check is required, and Charms have no effect on the Cave.

If any player that draws a Perception card already has one, they may choose to keep the new card or the previous card and then return the unwanted card to the bottom of the deck.


Actions
The Thievery value determines the number of Action Tokens you have available for the turn. Action tokens can be used at any time before, during, or after movement. You may use them individually to attempt several different actions or the same action multiple times. You can also spend 2 or more tokens on a single action to increase the effectiveness and/or increase your chance of succeeding at the action. Actions that target other players can only be used after resolving that player’s Perception. You cannot target the same player twice in the same turn.

Loot – Collect a Treasure Trove or a Dragon Gem.
1 Token: Take the Treasure or Gem. If you collected a Dragon Gem, roll the Dragon Die. If it “hits” the center space it is a Trap and you are killed.
2 Tokens: Take a Dragon Gem without rolling the Dragon Die (you automatically disarm the Trap).

Climb – Use your agility to find new routes through the cave.
2 Tokens: Pass through a wall.
3 Tokens: Move through impassible terrain (you must be able to end your movement on a normal tile or the move cannot be made).
Upgrade: Climbing Gear decreases the action cost of each Climb action by 1.

Pickpocket – Steal from another player to gain a Treasure
1 Token: Roll the Action die and succeed by rolling a 4 or higher.
2 Tokens: Roll the Action die and succeed by rolling a 2 or higher.
3 Tokens: Automatically succeed (No roll required).
Upgrade: Sticky Fingers allow you to reroll 1 Pickpocket attempt per turn.

If this action succeeds you gain a Treasure Trove (taken from the Cave’s supply). The target loses an item as follows:
When you steal from the Knight, you may choose to take a Hero Token or a Treasure card (revealed or unrevealed). Return the stolen Treasure card to the bottom of the deck. If the Knight has only 2 Hero Tokens and no Treasures, she cannot be targeted with this action.
When you steal from a Goblin Tribe, that Tribe loses 1 Strength (volunteers are sent to chase after you).
When you steal from the Dragon, return 1 Sloth cube to Greed. If there is no Greed space available, the Dragon cannot be targeted with this action.

Lock Pick – Open a Treasure Vault.
1 Token: Roll the Action die and succeed by rolling a 4 or higher.
2 Tokens: Roll the Action die and succeed by rolling a 2 or higher.
3 Tokens: Automatically succeed (No roll required).
Upgrade: A Lock Picking Kit reduces the cost of Lock Pick actions by 1.

You may attempt to open each Vault only once per turn. If this action succeeds, remove the Vault token and gain a Treasure Trove (taken from the Cave’s supply).

Backstab – Attack and Debuff (injure) another player.
1 Token: Apply the Light Debuff
2 Tokens: Apply the Moderate Debuff
3 Tokens: Apply the Heavy Debuff
Upgrade: The Hand Crossbow allows you to perform this action from up to 3 spaces away.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Backstab Matrix
---------- Knight ------------- Goblins -------------------- Dragon
Light ---- Lock 1 Hero Token -- Tribe loses 1 Strength ----- Discard 1 Card
Moderate - Lose 1 Strength ---- Tribe Scatters ------------- Discard 3 Cards
Heavy ---- Lose 1 Hero Token -- Tribe is wiped out (Str 0) - Discard all Cards
-------------------------------------------------------------------

When a Hero Token is locked, you choose it by placing a Lock Token next to it. A locked Hero Token continues to function normally, but cannot be removed or discarded from its current location until the next time the Knight heals (remove all Lock tokens when healed).
When the Knight loses 1 Strength, place the -1 Strength marker on her player board. Remove that token after the Knight’s next battle with another player.

Charm – Avoid death using only your wits (and some bribery).
1 Token: Set out a Light Buff
2 Tokens: Set out a Moderate Buff
3 Tokens: Set out a Heavy Buff
X Tokens: Increase or decrease the level of a previously-set charm equal to the number of tokens spent.
Upgrade: Natural Charm allows you to roll the Action die if a Charm is refused. On a 4 or higher the player must accept it.

When set, place the Charm marker on your player board in the space that corresponds to the level of the Charm. A Charm remains on your board until it is used or you spend Action tokens to decrease it below the lowest level to remove it. Charms must be set prior to interacting with other players. If the player’s Perception is higher than your Stealth, they may choose to accept the Charm or decline. If they accept, you survive and they gain the bonus as listed below. If they decline you are killed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Charm Matrix
---------- Knight ----------------------------- Goblins --------- Dragon
Light ---- Gain 1 Hero Token (Next turn only) - Gain 1 Strength - Draw 1 Card
Moderate - Gain 1 Strength -------------------- Gain a Totem ---- Draw 3 Cards
Heavy ---- Gain 1 Hero Token ------------------ Gain 2 Strength - Move 1 Cube from Pride to Awake
-------------------------------------------------------------------

When the Knight accepts a Light charm, place one of your Action tokens in the Earned Hero Tokens space on her player board to be used as an additional Hero Token on her next turn. On the following turn when resetting tokens, it is returned to your supply.


Treasures & Stash
When you acquire a treasure or a gem you must carry it back to the entrance tile to add it to your Stash. While being carried, the symbol shown on a Dragon Gem can still be used by the Dragon to activate abilities, and a Treasure Trove counts for the Cave when drawing Omens. Stashing happens automatically when you end your movement on the entrance tile and does not require the use of an Action token. When a Dragon Gem is stashed, return it to the Dragon player and replace it with a Treasure Trove from the Cave’s supply.

Once stashed, the treasure counts toward your victory condition and cannot be lost. Each time you stash a treasure, you also choose an Improvement by placing the treasure token in any upgrade space on your player board (refer to the Upgrades section for more details).

When you are killed, any treasures or gems you were carrying are dropped on your tile. You may recover them by returning to the tile and using a Loot action for each, or they can be picked up by other players normally.


Upgrades
Upgrades help the Thief to become faster, more efficient, and better skilled. When a treasure token is assigned to an upgrade space it takes effect immediately (if able), and cannot be lost or reassigned.

Stat Boosts – The +1 Movement, +1 Stealth, and +1 Thievery upgrades each add a permanent increase of 1 to the chosen stat. (This adds to the value of the assigned token, so it allows a maximum value of 5 for each stat.)

Stat Token Upgrades – The upgrade spaces to the right of the stat spaces increase the values of the tokens you can assign each turn. When you choose the first level upgrade, flip either the 3-value or 2-value token over to its reverse side to increase its value by 1 (the 4-value token cannot be flipped). When you choose the second level upgrade, flip the other token to its reverse side. When you choose the third upgrade level, remove all 3 tokens from the game; their values become 4 for the rest of the game and no longer need to be collected and reassigned at the start of your turn.

Hand Crossbow – You may target a player with a Backstab action from up to 3 spaces away in a straight line. If the player’s Perception is higher than or equal to your Stealth they avoid the attack, but you are not killed unless you are in the same space.

Climbing Gear – Reduce the costs of performing Climb actions by 1.

Lock Picking Kit – Reduce the costs of performing Lock Pick actions by 1.

Sticky Fingers – You may reroll one Pickpocket attempt each turn.

Natural Charm – When resolving a Charm, roll the Action die. If you roll a 4 or higher the offer cannot be refused.
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Brian Hamilton
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Thanks for the update!

You guys can still change stuff.


Thief side missions might be cool on 1 card for solo play/variety. (roll die -haha- for next one? If you have already done hypothetical mission 3 and roll a 3 --> becomes 4)
You guys are the bosses though!

 
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Ryan Byrd
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I have been following the development of Trove since the entry was posted. I am still impressed with the diversity that is being developed. So glad I backed this one.

Looking forward to it.
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John Szostak
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Hello,

I have a question about the Thief's CLIMB ability.
Once the 2 cubes have been paid to use this ability,
is the thief only allowed to climb over ONE wall during his movement phase?
Or is this Climb action cover ANY Walls that he encounters during this turn?

During gameplay the CAVE had triggered landslides around the cave entrance, boxing it in. As the thief, when I died, I started back at the entrance. There was a Dragon Gem on the other side of the wall. I had paid the 2 cubes to climb the wall and had enough movement points to climb the wall, get the gem and then get back to the entrance in one turn, to stash it, but someone said that I could only climb ONE wall with that ability and needed to wait until my next turn.

What's the ruling here?

Thanks!
 
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Kyle
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Sonar1994 wrote:
Hello,

I have a question about the Thief's CLIMB ability.
Once the 2 cubes have been paid to use this ability,
is the thief only allowed to climb over ONE wall during his movement phase?
Or is this Climb action cover ANY Walls that he encounters during this turn?
The cube cost is per wall that the Thief climbs over.


Walls around the entrance tile are a great way to slow down the Thief.
 
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