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Subject: Skip Bombing Attack bonus - (extended) range? rss

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Ferro Ostil
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#24: 2 / Skip Bombing Attack: Battle of the Bismark Sea
The Japanese permanently lose one Amphibious Shipping Point unless it is their last ASP. Bonus: Prior to battle, if an active Japanese CA, CL or APD naval unit moved within the extended range of a U.S. non-LRB air unit it loses one step. If more than one naval unit qualifies, Japanese player's choice. Draw one Strategy Card. Remove from play if use as an event.

AP played this card and the only eligible unit is FEAF Air, which can't attack at extended range of (4). Japanese ships moved through the FEAF's extended range. Does the bonus still apply, that is, does the JP ship still lose one step? It did not move through regular range, only extended range of the unit.

Thanks!
 
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Mark Evans
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It sounds like the Japanese ship would still take the hit.
 
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Mark Herman
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I am working right now, but I need to see the rules and more specifically the glossary. At first blush, extended range is extended range, so you take the hit. I reserve the right to change my mind after I see what is written.

Mark
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Ferro Ostil
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From the Glossary (2nd Ed Rules):

Aircraft Range: Air units (land based aircraft units) have two range values (normal and extended) on their counter. An aircraft unit’s range is the distance in hexes that it can move from airfield to airfield, and the distance in hexes it can be from a battle that it participates in. When an aircraft uses its extended range in battle, its attack strength is halved for combat purposes. If an air unit’s extended range is in parentheses, it cannot use extended range to participate in battle; it can only join in a battle that is within its normal range. Also, a unit with extended range in parenthesis cannot participate in a battle if it uses this range to move during an Offensive. Consequently, an aircraft unit cannot react using its parenthetical value, since all re- action units have to participate in a battle in order to reaction move.

DESIGN NOTE: The normal range is the operational range of the fighters in the air unit, whereas the extended range represents solely the two engine bombers traveling alone. Only the Allies had four engine bombers, which are in separate Long Range Bomber air units that have one range value. Air units with parenthetical range represent units composed only of short ranged tactical interceptors and fighter-bombers.

Range: Range is the distance between two hexes. When counting range do not include the starting hex the HQ or combat unit occupies, but include the destination hex in the calculation.

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Filip Spacek
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Well it's true that from historical perspective skip bombing was done by two engined bombers, not fighters...
 
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John Steidl
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MarkHerman wrote:
At first blush, extended range is extended range, so you take the hit. I reserve the right to change my mind after I see what is written.
Mark
By way of precedent, the S-Day bonus specifies that 11th Airborne can be dropped within extended range of any air unit (or normal LRB range) but I believe the ruling has been that this does not apply to parenthesized extended ranges.
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Ferro Ostil
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It would be great to get an official ruling on this. The text of the card doesn't distinguish what sort of extended range, whether in parenthesis or no, is required which suggests the bonus applies. On the other hand, extended range can not be used to attack in any other context, and the planes growing extra engines for the skip-bombing bonus doesn't make sense.

We've flipped the JP unit for now, but await word from on high.
 
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Mark Evans
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I think Mark Herman's answer above would be the final word. He qualified his answer by reserving the right to change his mind on further review. With no further word, the above post would be the current answer.
 
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Mark Herman
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MGabriel wrote:
It would be great to get an official ruling on this. The text of the card doesn't distinguish what sort of extended range, whether in parenthesis or no, is required which suggests the bonus applies. On the other hand, extended range can not be used to attack in any other context, and the planes growing extra engines for the skip-bombing bonus doesn't make sense.

We've flipped the JP unit for now, but await word from on high.
My ruling stands, play as written, parenthetical extended range qualifies for the bonus.
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Ferro Ostil
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Thanks, Mark. Confound the Imperial Navy!
 
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Beth Grube
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MGabriel wrote:
Thanks, Mark. Confound the Imperial Navy!
Ill take extended range for $300?
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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Groobies wrote:
MGabriel wrote:
Thanks, Mark. Confound the Imperial Navy!
Ill take extended range for $300?
This card allows you to make a US paradrop as long as the 11 airborne division begins the offensive stacked with an air unit. The target hex must be within extended range of the air unit and the destination unoccupied and free of Japanese un neutralized AZOI.
 
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mark Hodgkinson
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Re: Skip Bombing Attack bonus - battle
Does there have to be a battle? what if the Japanese only moved ships but declared no battle?
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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According to Mark no battle is required. The attack is now a bonus. The main effect is to reduce Japanese ASP. The wording "prior to Battle" in the bonus is meant to indicate timing: this is an attack card that is resolved BEFORE battles(assuming battle hexes were declared).

Thus, with or without a battle if Japan moves the right units within extended range you can cause a step loss.
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Jeremy Jones
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Does the bonus apply only if the naval units moved within extended range prior to reaction player's movement or does the bonus take effect if the reaction player moved air units to within range of the naval unit?
 
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Mark Herman
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mos_def85 wrote:
Does the bonus apply only if the naval units moved within extended range prior to reaction player's movement or does the bonus take effect if the reaction player moved air units to within range of the naval unit?
Sequence of play answers all timing questions. Before reaction movement.
 
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Jeremy Jones
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MarkHerman wrote:
mos_def85 wrote:
Does the bonus apply only if the naval units moved within extended range prior to reaction player's movement or does the bonus take effect if the reaction player moved air units to within range of the naval unit?
Sequence of play answers all timing questions. Before reaction movement.
Doesn't reaction player activation and movement happen in step 8 of the sequence of play then Attack reaction cards in step 9? Sorry if I'm being dense. Still trying to learn.
 
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Andrew Vignuzzi
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Don't confuse the timing of the card play with the text of the card. You are right on when a card is declared, but the text states that the movement must come within the extended range of a US non-LRB, so that is when you would have assessed the move. That took place in step 2 and it is the move at that point that you would used to assess the condition. The impact of the card is done in Step 10.

Just like Sub attack that is after combat. Play of the card occurs at step 9, but it is only assessed at step 12.

Keep in mind that this card can be played even if the intelligence condition is Surprise.
 
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Jeremy Jones
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Thanks for the clarification! What had me confused is some cards state conditions such as "prior to reaction" which would seem more appropriate for skip bombing conditions if this is the case, instead of the condition of "prior to battle."
 
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