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Conflict of Heroes: Eastern Front – Solo Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Scenario 3 REs rss

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Chris McDonald
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A couple questions about the REs in scenario 3:

1) Can they move through any terrain when moving two hexes? e.g. open then light woods, or light woods then light woods?

2) Do they still pay foot AP costs for movement (since they have a red movement factor)?

3) If they can do a move like "light woods then light woods", do they pay the AP cost of terrain twice (e.g. a total of 3AP)? What movement AP cost are they considered to have payed?

4) What does one do if an RE in a building/heavy woods turns out to be a wheeled vehicle (which can't legally enter that terrain)? Assume it snuck in there somehow, but treat its movement normally from then on?

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Ben Bosmans
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RE = Rumoured Enemy units. "RE have no facing, but act, move and execute orders just like other AI. All RE have a red foot movement cost of 1 ..."

Rule 6.1.

The specifc scenario 3 rules say they "move 2 hexes" in this particular case in the "special rules" section.

Since these are specific scenario rules it shows the normal moves are replaced with the "2 hexes rule" but they still have a red 1 movement cost as they are "rumoured enemies"

With a 1 red Foot movement cost, they would check for single highest terrain cost as usual despite being allowed 2 hex moves.

The rule 5.4 says an AI Tank " will not move into a stone Building hex or any other hex that could potentially immobilize them"... but with a RE status it is not considered an identified Tank clearly, so the Tank rules only apply the moment the RE is revealed. Until that time your Rumoured Enemy still has the red 1 Foot status tag on the counter.

It can not be stuck since it had a Red Foot status at the time of the reveal. From there on it behaves like a Tank according to rule 5.4 of course. Idem ditto for wheeled vehicules.

You know this is German Gründlichkeit at its best.





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John Peel
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I have a similar question on RE. I am struggling to get my head around what i am doing in scenario 3.

In particular when i fire to see if i can reveal a RE i roll 2d6 and a result > 9 means they reveal.

I then take a token from the cup and place it where the RE was. The rules say i take the same die roll and use it to determine the AV of the unit (my AV)

Then it says if i fired at an RE and it was revealed it says "the same die result is used to determine if the AI is it"

So i take that to mean the following:

i shoot at an RE - i roll 2d6 the result is 11
i draw from the cup - i draw a t-26 (for arguments sake)
my AV against the T-26 is 11
i add my FP to the AV of 11 to determine if i hit.

Is that correct? It sounds correct but i have learnt so many new things in the last 24 hours i actually think i might be going a little bit mental!
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James Palmer
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johnrp wrote:
I have a similar question on RE. I am struggling to get my head around what i am doing in scenario 3.

In particular when i fire to see if i can reveal a RE i roll 2d6 and a result > 9 means they reveal.

I then take a token from the cup and place it where the RE was. The rules say i take the same die roll and use it to determine the AV of the unit (my AV)

Then it says if i fired at an RE and it was revealed it says "the same die result is used to determine if the AI is it"

So i take that to mean the following:

i shoot at an RE - i roll 2d6 the result is 11
i draw from the cup - i draw a t-26 (for arguments sake)
my AV against the T-26 is 11
i add my FP to the AV of 11 to determine if i hit.

Is that correct? It sounds correct but i have learnt so many new things in the last 24 hours i actually think i might be going a little bit mental!
Yes, that's correct.
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John Peel
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Thanks. Awesome game but so much to learn!

Many thanks for the quick response.
 
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Chris McDonald
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Ben_Bos wrote:
RE = Rumoured Enemy units. "RE have no facing, but act, move and execute orders just like other AI. All RE have a red foot movement cost of 1 ..."

Rule 6.1.

The specifc scenario 3 rules say they "move 2 hexes" in this particular case in the "special rules" section.

Since these are specific scenario rules it shows the normal moves are replaced with the "2 hexes rule" but they still have a red 1 movement cost as they are "rumoured enemies"

With a 1 red Foot movement cost, they would check for single highest terrain cost as usual despite being allowed 2 hex moves.

The rule 5.4 says an AI Tank " will not move into a stone Building hex or any other hex that could potentially immobilize them"... but with a RE status it is not considered an identified Tank clearly, so the Tank rules only apply the moment the RE is revealed. Until that time your Rumoured Enemy still has the red 1 Foot status tag on the counter.

It can not be stuck since it had a Red Foot status at the time of the reveal. From there on it behaves like a Tank according to rule 5.4 of course. Idem ditto for wheeled vehicules.

You know this is German Gründlichkeit at its best.

"With a 1 red Foot movement cost, they would check for single highest terrain cost as usual despite being allowed 2 hex moves."

What do you mean by 'as usual'? I don't know of any rules for this. Outside of this scenario special rule it's not possible to make a multihex move through anything but clear terrain (+0AP). "Single highest" is one sensible ruling, but "sum of all penalties" seems equally sensible.
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Lewis Karl
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cfmcdonald wrote:
Ben_Bos wrote:
RE = Rumoured Enemy units. "RE have no facing, but act, move and execute orders just like other AI. All RE have a red foot movement cost of 1 ..."

Rule 6.1.

The specifc scenario 3 rules say they "move 2 hexes" in this particular case in the "special rules" section.

Since these are specific scenario rules it shows the normal moves are replaced with the "2 hexes rule" but they still have a red 1 movement cost as they are "rumoured enemies"

With a 1 red Foot movement cost, they would check for single highest terrain cost as usual despite being allowed 2 hex moves.

The rule 5.4 says an AI Tank " will not move into a stone Building hex or any other hex that could potentially immobilize them"... but with a RE status it is not considered an identified Tank clearly, so the Tank rules only apply the moment the RE is revealed. Until that time your Rumoured Enemy still has the red 1 Foot status tag on the counter.

It can not be stuck since it had a Red Foot status at the time of the reveal. From there on it behaves like a Tank according to rule 5.4 of course. Idem ditto for wheeled vehicules.

You know this is German Gründlichkeit at its best.

"With a 1 red Foot movement cost, they would check for single highest terrain cost as usual despite being allowed 2 hex moves."

What do you mean by 'as usual'? I don't know of any rules for this. Outside of this scenario special rule it's not possible to make a multihex move through anything but clear terrain (+0AP). "Single highest" is one sensible ruling, but "sum of all penalties" seems equally sensible.
Going up hills for example. You can still bonus move with tracked vehicle but you pay the extra +1 cost of elevation change. So, considering a tracked vehicle with 1AP movement cost, you could move from ground to L2 with 2 moves (1 bonus move) and only pay 2AP. I think there is even an example in the base rules.
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Chris McDonald
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pisqueeter wrote:
cfmcdonald wrote:
Ben_Bos wrote:
RE = Rumoured Enemy units. "RE have no facing, but act, move and execute orders just like other AI. All RE have a red foot movement cost of 1 ..."

Rule 6.1.

The specifc scenario 3 rules say they "move 2 hexes" in this particular case in the "special rules" section.

Since these are specific scenario rules it shows the normal moves are replaced with the "2 hexes rule" but they still have a red 1 movement cost as they are "rumoured enemies"

With a 1 red Foot movement cost, they would check for single highest terrain cost as usual despite being allowed 2 hex moves.

The rule 5.4 says an AI Tank " will not move into a stone Building hex or any other hex that could potentially immobilize them"... but with a RE status it is not considered an identified Tank clearly, so the Tank rules only apply the moment the RE is revealed. Until that time your Rumoured Enemy still has the red 1 Foot status tag on the counter.

It can not be stuck since it had a Red Foot status at the time of the reveal. From there on it behaves like a Tank according to rule 5.4 of course. Idem ditto for wheeled vehicules.

You know this is German Gründlichkeit at its best.

"With a 1 red Foot movement cost, they would check for single highest terrain cost as usual despite being allowed 2 hex moves."

What do you mean by 'as usual'? I don't know of any rules for this. Outside of this scenario special rule it's not possible to make a multihex move through anything but clear terrain (+0AP). "Single highest" is one sensible ruling, but "sum of all penalties" seems equally sensible.
Going up hills for example. You can still bonus move with tracked vehicle but you pay the extra +1 cost of elevation change. So, considering a tracked vehicle with 1AP movement cost, you could move from ground to L2 with 2 moves (1 bonus move) and only pay 2AP. I think there is even an example in the base rules.
I didn't think of hills. But I don't see anything in the rules or examples that says how many AP it costs to go up 2 levels with bonus moves (if there were high enough hills in the game you could even go up 3 levels in one move).
 
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Lewis Karl
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cfmcdonald wrote:
pisqueeter wrote:
cfmcdonald wrote:
Ben_Bos wrote:
RE = Rumoured Enemy units. "RE have no facing, but act, move and execute orders just like other AI. All RE have a red foot movement cost of 1 ..."

Rule 6.1.

The specifc scenario 3 rules say they "move 2 hexes" in this particular case in the "special rules" section.

Since these are specific scenario rules it shows the normal moves are replaced with the "2 hexes rule" but they still have a red 1 movement cost as they are "rumoured enemies"

With a 1 red Foot movement cost, they would check for single highest terrain cost as usual despite being allowed 2 hex moves.

The rule 5.4 says an AI Tank " will not move into a stone Building hex or any other hex that could potentially immobilize them"... but with a RE status it is not considered an identified Tank clearly, so the Tank rules only apply the moment the RE is revealed. Until that time your Rumoured Enemy still has the red 1 Foot status tag on the counter.

It can not be stuck since it had a Red Foot status at the time of the reveal. From there on it behaves like a Tank according to rule 5.4 of course. Idem ditto for wheeled vehicules.

You know this is German Gründlichkeit at its best.

"With a 1 red Foot movement cost, they would check for single highest terrain cost as usual despite being allowed 2 hex moves."

What do you mean by 'as usual'? I don't know of any rules for this. Outside of this scenario special rule it's not possible to make a multihex move through anything but clear terrain (+0AP). "Single highest" is one sensible ruling, but "sum of all penalties" seems equally sensible.
Going up hills for example. You can still bonus move with tracked vehicle but you pay the extra +1 cost of elevation change. So, considering a tracked vehicle with 1AP movement cost, you could move from ground to L2 with 2 moves (1 bonus move) and only pay 2AP. I think there is even an example in the base rules.
I didn't think of hills. But I don't see anything in the rules or examples that says how many AP it costs to go up 2 levels with bonus moves (if there were high enough hills in the game you could even go up 3 levels in one move).
The example is in section 14.2. However, its +1 additional AP for each level so the cost in my example is 3AP.
 
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Kurt R
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cfmcdonald wrote:
A couple questions about the REs in scenario 3:

1) Can they move through any terrain when moving two hexes? e.g. open then light woods, or light woods then light woods?

2) Do they still pay foot AP costs for movement (since they have a red movement factor)?

3) If they can do a move like "light woods then light woods", do they pay the AP cost of terrain twice (e.g. a total of 3AP)? What movement AP cost are they considered to have payed?

4) What does one do if an RE in a building/heavy woods turns out to be a wheeled vehicle (which can't legally enter that terrain)? Assume it snuck in there somehow, but treat its movement normally from then on?

I have the same questions. If I understand the context of this thread then the answers are:

1) Yes, they just plow through any and all terrain b/c it says they move 2.

2) Yes, they have red foot costs when in RE form.

3) I guess they move twice but pay just the higher movement cost hex.

4) I guess it's an exception and they can freely move out if instructed.

Number 3 is not obvious to me. I like this game, but sometimes it feels like pulling teeth with these rules. That should have been made more clear. "RE move 2 hexes but only take a spent check on the movement cost of the higher cost hex" or something.

Quote:
You know this is German Gründlichkeit at its best.
That means "teeth pulling", doesn't it?
 
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Lewis Karl
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I don't know what the intention of the firefight designer was with regard to terrain restrictions on the two hex move. But I played this one using the same restrictions that apply to AI tanks with one tracked bonus move. That seemed more in keeping with the tank theme. It probably doesn't matter much how you play, but I imagine the difficulty is a bit higher if you have no restrictions.
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Kurt R
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pisqueeter wrote:
I don't know what the intention of the firefight designer was with regard to terrain restrictions on the two hex move. But I played this one using the same restrictions that apply to AI tanks with one tracked bonus move. That seemed more in keeping with the tank theme. It probably doesn't matter much how you play, but I imagine the difficulty is a bit higher if you have no restrictions.
Thanks, Lewis. I'll try it that way after this play.
 
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I played it as a bonus tank move (from treads). Worked well for me.
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pisqueeter wrote:
I don't know what the intention of the firefight designer was with regard to terrain restrictions on the two hex move. But I played this one using the same restrictions that apply to AI tanks with one tracked bonus move. That seemed more in keeping with the tank theme. It probably doesn't matter much how you play, but I imagine the difficulty is a bit higher if you have no restrictions.
I played it this way also; I found it removes having to wonder about the cost for double moves via dubious terrain, and also reduces the chance for vehicles being revealed within terrain they should not really be allowed in.

Would be interested though, to hear what the 'men in the know' have to say
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Kurt R
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minksling wrote:
pisqueeter wrote:
I don't know what the intention of the firefight designer was with regard to terrain restrictions on the two hex move. But I played this one using the same restrictions that apply to AI tanks with one tracked bonus move. That seemed more in keeping with the tank theme. It probably doesn't matter much how you play, but I imagine the difficulty is a bit higher if you have no restrictions.
I played it this way also; I found it removes having to wonder about the cost for double moves via dubious terrain, and also reduces the chance for vehicles being revealed within terrain they should not really be allowed in.

Would be interested though, to hear what the 'men in the know' have to say
Well, the following does occur to me as I play the firefight.

Having the RE move 2 spaces through any and all terrain abstracts that we don't know exactly where the enemy is. It's not just a) possibly an enemy tank but b) possibly a lot closer than we thought it was. So it could suddenly move through 2 heavy woods hexes and be adjacent to one of our units because Yikes! It snuck up on us! It abstracts not that the tank is moving two spaces at once but that it was one hex closer than we thought and then moved to the next hex.

Now, I'm not fighting for that interpretation, just saying it occurred to me. Having the RE move like tracked vehicles does make sense but I'm actually trying something different to see if I can adhere to the "RE move 2 spaces" rules.

I'm trying that the RE move 2 spaces (any and all terrain) but pay blue AP costs (of the last hex they enter). This maintains the original rule (if that is intentional; may not be after all) but makes it a little bit easier for the RE to flip.

This may or may not work. I have the firefight set up on my 2nd table right now and will knock out a couple of plays at least trying different ways. I'll report on what I end up preferring, what works/doesn't work, etc.
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Kurt, I think you are correct in the interpretation of the "free" two-hex move, should you choose to play it that way. The RE is closer than you thought makes perfect sense. I've only play this FF once and lost using the normal tank move method. Next time, playing using the "free" move method might be more fun (and probably is the intended method) paying the AP cost of the most expensive terrain hex makes sense.
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pisqueeter wrote:
Kurt, I think you are correct in the interpretation of the "free" two-hex move, should you choose to play it that way. The RE is closer than you thought makes perfect sense. I've only play this FF once and lost using the normal tank move method. Next time, playing using the "free" move method might be more fun (and probably is the intended method) paying the AP cost of the most expensive terrain hex makes sense.
Well, I don't know for sure but there have been times when I questioned a rule and was told, "Just do what the rules say, dude" and the rules here say "move 2 hexes" and not "move 2 hexes as if tracked movement" or anything else. I'm trusting it was designed and playtested as such.

I wasn't sure about which hex to charge the RE for the spent check. If you charge for the highest cost hex (of the 2 it moves through) then that brings up situations where the RE has a choice of hexes to move. Do you assume it would choose the route with the lowest cost hexes? I simplified it and said it's the hex where the RE ends up. May not be right but that's my reasoning and it cuts down on RE "decisions."

In any case, I'm experimenting and will either figure something out myself or Gunter will post in the meantime.
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Reply to a geekmail from Gunter:

Quote:
The intention is that it would be a bonus movement, so they follow the normal bonus movement rules. I want to make this more explicit in the next iteration of the mission book that we will post online. Use the red foot unit values when making spent checks though.
OK, so you guys were right in playing it as a bonus move. You still use red foot movement for spent checks (surprisingly). So this was a case of "do what the rules say in the context of the main rules" vs "just do what the rules say."

I will report that I played it with my literal translation way of the AI moving 2 hexes and it still works. I played it on the easy setting though (per the firefight rules).

I get the feeling that the system is robust enough that you could find a few different levels of playing and they would work (with varying degrees of difficulty).

Move 2 as per bonus move with red/blue AP check
Move any 2 hexes with red/blue AP check
Play with easy/normal settings
etc

Just thinking out loud. Happy to have a clear direction. Thanks, Gunter.
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I am playing this firefight now and I play that the soviet REs move 2 hexes(like Rapid Deployment action card) for 1AP.

Works good so far.
 
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enzo622 wrote:
Reply to a geekmail from Gunter:

Quote:
The intention is that it would be a bonus movement, so they follow the normal bonus movement rules. I want to make this more explicit in the next iteration of the mission book that we will post online. Use the red foot unit values when making spent checks though.
OK, so you guys were right in playing it as a bonus move. You still use red foot movement for spent checks (surprisingly). So this was a case of "do what the rules say in the context of the main rules" vs "just do what the rules say."

I will report that I played it with my literal translation way of the AI moving 2 hexes and it still works. I played it on the easy setting though (per the firefight rules).

I get the feeling that the system is robust enough that you could find a few different levels of playing and they would work (with varying degrees of difficulty).

Move 2 as per bonus move with red/blue AP check
Move any 2 hexes with red/blue AP check
Play with easy/normal settings
etc

Just thinking out loud. Happy to have a clear direction. Thanks, Gunter.
So if I understand correctly in this firefight the REs can move 2 hexes following the rule for vehicles and bonus moves, but pay APs using red movement rule?
Ex; RE move into light forest hex, with a low risk move order, pays 1AP(like foot unit), not 2 (1 base, +1AP for terrain).

Is this correct?
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maedhros wrote:
enzo622 wrote:
Reply to a geekmail from Gunter:

Quote:
The intention is that it would be a bonus movement, so they follow the normal bonus movement rules. I want to make this more explicit in the next iteration of the mission book that we will post online. Use the red foot unit values when making spent checks though.
OK, so you guys were right in playing it as a bonus move. You still use red foot movement for spent checks (surprisingly). So this was a case of "do what the rules say in the context of the main rules" vs "just do what the rules say."

I will report that I played it with my literal translation way of the AI moving 2 hexes and it still works. I played it on the easy setting though (per the firefight rules).

I get the feeling that the system is robust enough that you could find a few different levels of playing and they would work (with varying degrees of difficulty).

Move 2 as per bonus move with red/blue AP check
Move any 2 hexes with red/blue AP check
Play with easy/normal settings
etc

Just thinking out loud. Happy to have a clear direction. Thanks, Gunter.
So if I understand correctly in this firefight the REs can move 2 hexes following the rule for vehicles and bonus moves, but pay APs using red movement rule?
Ex; RE move into light forest hex, with a low risk move order, pays 1AP(like foot unit), not 2 (1 base, +1AP for tracked vehicle).

Is this correct?
That's how I understand it, yes.
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enzo622 wrote:
maedhros wrote:
enzo622 wrote:
Reply to a geekmail from Gunter:

Quote:
The intention is that it would be a bonus movement, so they follow the normal bonus movement rules. I want to make this more explicit in the next iteration of the mission book that we will post online. Use the red foot unit values when making spent checks though.
OK, so you guys were right in playing it as a bonus move. You still use red foot movement for spent checks (surprisingly). So this was a case of "do what the rules say in the context of the main rules" vs "just do what the rules say."

I will report that I played it with my literal translation way of the AI moving 2 hexes and it still works. I played it on the easy setting though (per the firefight rules).

I get the feeling that the system is robust enough that you could find a few different levels of playing and they would work (with varying degrees of difficulty).

Move 2 as per bonus move with red/blue AP check
Move any 2 hexes with red/blue AP check
Play with easy/normal settings
etc

Just thinking out loud. Happy to have a clear direction. Thanks, Gunter.
So if I understand correctly in this firefight the REs can move 2 hexes following the rule for vehicles and bonus moves, but pay APs using red movement rule?
Ex; RE move into light forest hex, with a low risk move order, pays 1AP(like foot unit), not 2 (1 base, +1AP for tracked vehicle).

Is this correct?
That's how I understand it, yes.
I started this firefight again(second play), now using these movement rules.
One of the soviet T-26 just flanked 2 of my tanks with these movement rules.
I already got the impression that I will have a much harder time... Nice!
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So, just to button this thread up: the updated mission book released today says:

All Rumored Enemy AI receive 1 track bonus movement (since they represent Tanks).

So, I take it this means to ignore the Red 1 movement on REs and treat them as if they have the same movement as a KV-1a (i.e., Blue 1 with a bonus track).
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I take it as just confirming the conclusion from the multiple discussions on this subject, namely that the RE are treated like tanks for movement and they have 1 (tracked) bonus move.
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pisqueeter wrote:
I take it as just confirming the conclusion from the multiple discussions on this subject, namely that the RE are treated like tanks for movement and they have 1 (tracked) bonus move.
None of those conclusions are in this thread so I wanted to button this up to ensure nobody would be confused reading this later.
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