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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Robin Hood and his ranged attackers rss

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Phoenix Bird
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So, a party of Archers where you deal damage at a distance. How feasible is this?

With a lot of Nemesis attacks targeting multiple squares and adjacent attackers this could be a valid strategy.

I always have one archer and they either stay put and shoot or move and use the Circlet. In early game everyone should carry Bone Darts if you haven’t innovated Dash.

The choice of ranged gear is shockingly small and you can’t have multiple copies of the same arrow. Both Bows are cumbersome and one is Slow. Bow Mastery takes a long time to get. So it will be an uphill struggle – which is what attracts me to Kingdom Death.

Would you have a token tank? Put them in your best armour and give them a whip so they have the Priority Target Token? This leaves the archers free. Or would you give everyone Faecal Salve and try and spread the monster attacks around.

Do I need to wait for the ranged expansion?

Ranged items roll fewer dice but have a higher strength meaning you are more likely to wound. Bow Specialisation allows you to reroll misses meaning you are more likely to hit with them. Although not with individual arrows unfortunately.

There are some nice things you can try and aim for such as the Strategist Fighting Art but the game is too random to guarantee getting them.

So what do you think?

Phoenix
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Nick Wirtz
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You shouldn't ignore bone darts and bone earrings(? whatever the bone buff is called) especially early game, and considering it looks like there'll be better bone options later, I expect it'll only get better.

Also, if you're really pushing range, you might as well get 2 arrows for debilitating effects and lack of cumbersome. That leaves 5 slots for armor and 1 for utility (or said whip).

Other than that, I think you're on the right track with your analysis.

Also, subscribed! Interested to see what you come up with.
 
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Hellena Handbasket
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I think it'll work against some monsters, but not all. Lions and antelopes, especially, will be rough, since they tend to move so much and bows are cumbersome.

Generally, I think you're better off going with a mix, though it could be fun to try out a run-through based on it if you're not looking specifically to play optimally.
 
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Robert Teves II
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You could try to steer your settlement towards events that grant Strategist specifically. Choosing Protect the Young gives you a 50/50 shot at the newborn gaining it. I think there's a second event, but maybe I'm misremembering.

Then, Records gives you a 40% chance of copying it to someone else.

Not really anything that can be heavily relied upon, but if it's what you're trying for, might be worth attempting.
 
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Bob Bob
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It might be worth mentioning that
Spoiler (click to reveal)
one of the King's Man Moods cancels all ranged attacks
, so youd need something to deal with that...
 
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Brendan Concannon
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Shoot for Blue Saviors (pardon the pun).
 
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Phoenix Bird
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Hey Nick!
Well the thought of naked archers with bone earrings is quite terrifying. From a survival point of view if nothing else. My People of the Skull taught me no armour = bad.
I would probably go for Rawhide armour as I will be using Dash each round if I need to move and shoot.

Hey Zamanth!
I don’t think I could play optimally if I tried.
I was kind of hoping that ranged attacks would help me with things like Grab. Because the monster usually has more movement it is hard to chase and melee but easier to chase and ranged attack. But there are definite arguments for carrying a backup melee weapon, preferably a polearm.

Hey Robert!
Good catch mate. I never would have spotted Records so thanks for that.

Hey Bob Bob!
You know it was actually that card that I saw fighting the Kingsman yesterday that inspired me to post on the boards.

Hey Brendon!
It’s a shame that don’t last longer but that extra range wound certainly come in handy. It’s also a shame their number of hits is so low as that luck bonus would definitely be welcome.

My only choice now is whether to combine the archers with the Twilight Knight variant and have him be my Tank/ Patsy/ Damage Sponge. Although that seems a bit crazy as if they die it’s game over.

But I could play a Seven Bowmen variant where you have seven bowmen who all start with Bow Mastery. But my Seven Swordsmen taught me never increasing population = bad.

Thanks everyone. I might start this today. And if you think of anything else like Frenzy potions let me know.

Phoenix
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Nick Wirtz
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On seven swordsmen, that one's just funky. After playing two campaigns, it seemed really obvious that just dying to random events would easily end the settlement.

My thought on that would be more faithful to the clear homage: you still have a town of non-fighters. Anyone other than the 7 still do everything... except actually venture out (hunt/showdown). So, kids, losing population, riskier endeavors, and retinue. Split the loss condition to all the 7, or all the townspeople.

Mostly they're there to take "-1 pop" hits for you.

Similarly, not sure how a TK could last through that many random event deaths...
 
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Nerds call me
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This idea interests me a lot but I'm not quite sure it is feasible until we see what the Sunstalker expansion holds for ranged options. I'm really hoping for more ranged options in the other expansions too because the base game is severely limited in these. Right now, I do have a Bow Specialist in my camp and she is pretty darn strong. She also has the Strategist FA which goes hand-in-hand with archers. But I can't really imagine a full party of archers faring well against a high-level WL. Let us know how this pans out for you, Phoenix.
 
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Nick Wirtz
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The problem is the age-old problem I've seen time and again in miniatures gaming, when it comes to a thorough mix of melee and range:

Range is solid, allows you to kite or just have a lot of attack opportunities without fear of melee retaliation, which leads to...

...ranged attacks are disproportionately weak (attack rate or damage)
...ranged attacks are ridiculously short-ranged or melee guys move really quickly
...no move & shoot
...ranged weapons are very expensive
...or some combination of the above, etc.

Personally, I prefer expensive but actually ranged attacks, and hope for at least a couple in the long run. Right now, the problem is, if you're able to shoot, you're generally able to walk into melee and hit, and monsters are able to walk to you and hit you, too, so in most cases there's not a tangible advantage other than being able to hold your position IMHO.

 
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IA Seldon
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:
So, a party of Archers where you deal damage at a distance. How feasible is this?
Robin Hood still had Little John and Friar Tuck, who were not archers. Also, I seem to recall Robin Hood spending more of his time in melee than with a bow. The only time his bow really come to play in most of the stories is at the Archery Tournament and on his death bed.

Put simply: you need a tank, and even if you are all archered up, you need melee weapons on those guys.

And, further along the line, if you start armor sets on any of your survivors that armor is going to gear you towards a specific fighting style. Rawhide might be conducive to a ranger...but it lacks enough soak to keep you alive against the harder opponents. You get trapped in a bad situation and it'll wreck you wholesale, whereas a broader party-set might recover.

Kiting sounds like an option...but even the first nemesis can get around that. The Butcher draws 2 AI every turn, and if he isn't in supreme kill-mode from one of his mood cards, that still translates into 10 movement spaces every turn because most of his AI is Move and Attack. And if he is in kill-mode, he can move 14 spaces. You can only dash once a turn. He can run you down.
 
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Bob Bob
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dorktron2000 wrote:
This idea interests me a lot but I'm not quite sure it is feasible until we see what the Sunstalker expansion holds for ranged options. I'm really hoping for more ranged options in the other expansions too because the base game is severely limited in these. Right now, I do have a Bow Specialist in my camp and she is pretty darn strong. She also has the Strategist FA which goes hand-in-hand with archers. But I can't really imagine a full party of archers faring well against a high-level WL. Let us know how this pans out for you, Phoenix.
At least Bows get a Specialization, two bows, and a couple arrows- I'm pretty bummed theres nothing for thrown other than Bone Darts, and no Specialization for it. I'm leaning towards homebrewing a couple other weapons (Kunai, Javelins, etc), and making my own Throwing Specialist/Master card. Thinkin Specialist would either give Thrown weapons in your gear grid Paired(simpler), or the ability to take a -1 ACC for a +1 SPD until end of turn when attacking with a Thrown weapon (a bit more flavorful). Master would give the ability to treat Daggers and Arrows as Thrown weapons with Range 3
 
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Phoenix Bird
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Well, as big experienced players we naturally forgot the most obvious and useful ranged weapon, the Founding Stone! Doh. Which I think are really potent, particularly when used with the circlet.

Anyway, so how did it go?

Well I went four years and did not get a single Sinew card.
As I was running this as a normal game I just went with the random nature of things and as a consequence did not get Strategist either.

My normal strategy is to try and Innovate and Intimacy each year.

Because Innovate uses almost half my resources there wasn’t a lot to make armour with and I didn’t want to make weapons which weren’t ranged ones so I just made four bone darts.

As a result my people were fragile and I was losing two each showdown. This happens when you don’t roll above a five for about twenty rolls in a row regardless of what your chosen strategy is.

So I had four years of using nothing but Bone Darts.

1/7+/3 Ranged 6

The seven plus is harsh. If you stand in the blind spot to make it 6+ that sort of defeats the purpose of ranged but that one die still doesn’t hit very often. Mechanically I will always favour the opportunity for more hits by rolling more dice.

It is worth noting the Red affinity on Bone Darts matched up with Monster Tooth Necklace so you just need another red on your armour to be at strength 5 with the bone darts which does help you out with Lions. Assuming your 1 die 7+ actually hits.

What did work with the Bone darts was manoeuvrability. Even with Grab AI and Grab Reactions and Knockback my guys could always reach an attack position – and then miss

It also allowed me to attack and duck behind stone pillars or into grass which was a tactical element I really enjoyed.

There is a big consensus on having melee weapons and needing a tank. I agree. I found a scrap sword in a Debris pile and that survivor did more damage than all the other three put together every showdown. With that one survivor usually being the closest target the monster chewed on them quite happily. The problem comes because you want to use the blind spot for the +1 bonus. Then you are rarely the target and the monster charges off with its 6 movement forcing you to run, and a hapless dagger thrower to soil his cloth.

After 4 years I have had 18 total population, 11 still alive. I did chose Graves and PtY but without Hovel all my saviour rolls are for naught. I have Ammonia and Lantern Oven so my survival limit is 2. (See why my peeps die?)

I now have a full set of leather armour and two leather shields so there should be less dying. Except I now have to fight the Butcher. So there may be less dying after the Butcher and before the Kingsman.

So if you want to experience a Range themed campaign then I would make some suggestions. Swap any number of your founding stones for Cut Gut Bows on your initial survivors.

Alternatively you can have your first resource haul two Sinew, two Lion Claw and four Normal Bone. Or just start with two bows two arrows and two bone darts. That way you aren’t getting anything you couldn’t achieve with a dream opening draw.

Thanks for reading so much and for your excellent ideas. But I need to ask:

Do I restart my settlement using one of the options above?
Do I magically give out three bows for the Butcher fight to see what happens?
Or carry on as normal and see how quickly I get smushed with my Fragile Bone Darts.

Phoenix
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Nick Wirtz
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I'd say option 3, then if it's too demoralizing, 1. I also think that giving your guys 4 bows will be both unbalancing and defeat a sense of progress, so think something weaker would be better.
 
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Phoenix Bird
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HandofBobb wrote:

At least Bows get a Specialization, two bows, and a couple arrows- I'm pretty bummed theres nothing for thrown other than Bone Darts, and no Specialization for it.
Hey Bob Bob!

Thrown is a separate keyword so you think something like this could happen. It would be great to have a thrown weapons master.

Now look up Thrown in the glossary and discover Adam hates you.



Phoenix
 
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Phoenix Bird
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Ranged Weapons Vs the Butcher (Spoilers)
Well that was a slugfest and no mistake. It lasted at least 25 turns and for me this kind of attrition isn’t the highlight of Kingdom Death.
I decided to give out 3 bows for free and see what happened.

It might be my die rolls or it might be the 4 in 10 chance of hitting but I did 1 wound every 2 turns. He was out of AI cards and the Death Blow location came up twice but I rolled a 1 each time. Do your KD dice roll kind of wonky? Mine do.

I did have a Patsy with a set of leather armour and leather shield and the Scrap Sword. The instinct is to attack as the sooner you kill the Monster the less damage it can deal to you right? But he literally stood in front of the Butcher and got attacked twice per round using only his bandages and Shield Block. Being hit with Devour Lantern and having -3 Accuracy tokens meant hitting back was very hard.

He had charged up Monster Grease too so was only being hit on a 6+. This made a big difference and he survived Hack City twice. I’ve never seen the Legendary Lungs event till now. He got the lungs! But was eventually killed. Too many hits to the head with Bite. I should have someone adjacent with bandages so he could use all his actions on Block.
But back to the ranged stuff!

The Butcher isn’t very mobile and the only shocks came when one of the archers drew the trap and got attacked. All of my archers were unarmoured but as most Butcher damage is 1 this wasn’t too dangerous.
The majority of Butcher attacks are “closest threat facing”
then “closest threat” so as long as your archers are off to the sides and you use Encourage to get your patsy back on his feet you won’t be targeted.

Intimidate will still affect you and I had a number of hairy rolls on the table. Love result number 3!

I did have a Frenzy potion and used that for three bow dice allowing him to hit the most.

So. Accuracy! Where can I buy some?

Phoenix
 
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Bob Bob
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:


Now look up Thrown in the glossary and discover Adam hates you.



Phoenix
Yeah, well- that's like, just his opinion, man...

seriously, that's kind of a bummer, I might have to ignore that and implement my own proficiency rules for it anyways.

I was going to comment about Frenzy drink helping with the Bone Darts a bit, but I see in your last post you picked some up.
 
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IA Seldon
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phoenix wrote:


It might be my die rolls or it might be the 4 in 10 chance of hitting but I did 1 wound every 2 turns. He was out of AI cards and the Death Blow location came up twice but I rolled a 1 each time. Do your KD dice roll kind of wonky? Mine do.

The Butcher isn’t very mobile and the only shocks came when one of the archers drew the trap and got attacked. All of my archers were unarmoured but as most Butcher damage is 1 this wasn’t too dangerous.

Phoenix
You are lucky you didn't draw his Priority Target Mood, then. The one that gives +2 movement and +1 speed I believe.

And how is a movement of 10 not mobile?

Anyway, yeah, sometimes the dice seems to hate me. I went 7 turns with a WLion 1 rolling perfect hits, but rolling 2's and 4's on the wounds. Gamer's Logic: the dice are tired and want you to give them a break. Or Else!
 
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Joseph Nudi
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IASeldon wrote:
phoenix wrote:


It might be my die rolls or it might be the 4 in 10 chance of hitting but I did 1 wound every 2 turns. He was out of AI cards and the Death Blow location came up twice but I rolled a 1 each time. Do your KD dice roll kind of wonky? Mine do.

The Butcher isn’t very mobile and the only shocks came when one of the archers drew the trap and got attacked. All of my archers were unarmoured but as most Butcher damage is 1 this wasn’t too dangerous.

Phoenix
You are lucky you didn't draw his Priority Target Mood, then. The one that gives +2 movement and +1 speed I believe.

And how is a movement of 10 not mobile?

Anyway, yeah, sometimes the dice seems to hate me. I went 7 turns with a WLion 1 rolling perfect hits, but rolling 2's and 4's on the wounds. Gamer's Logic: the dice are tired and want you to give them a break. Or Else!
The game isn't in front of me, but I though that the L1 Butcher was a movement of 5. Or am I remembering incorrectly?
 
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Phoenix Bird
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As per Nick’s suggestion I restarted the Settlement. I played the Prologue and after the first full Lion (when the Cattarium appears) I gave myself the resource package described above and played till LY 6.
I got three bows and three arrows and three sets of darts. I don’t have Dash or Surge.

Bone Earrings
I did want to try a darts master with Bone Earrings but unlocking Stone Circle and getting a Shank Bone is a huge diversion. Plus the Bone Only stipulation on the Earrings means my gear grid will be virtually blank. I might try Blood Paint and Darts for a similar effect through.

The White Lion
This is a good opponent for ranged attackers. If you can get him to chew on your patsy (mine had Rawhide Armour and Leather Shield) your others can ping away merrily. If you get any of the Arrows to stick, Minus Evasion is way better than Accuracy as it applies to everyone attacking. I would usually get one or two arrows to hit and that made a great difference. You don’t want to draw a trap however as that makes the Lion go after one of your guys who is unarmoured and throws everyone out of position.
The level two Lion is tricky as he has cunning and is moving about all over the place. If you can guide him towards a corner however and give him someone to chew on then you can box him in and keep plinking away. It might take a bit of running around early on but I took down an unexpected L2 Lion.

The Catgut Bow
2/7+/3 Ranged 6 Cumbersome
The two dice help a lot and ranged 6 covers quite a bit of ground. You are outside the range of Ground Fighting, Alert and Cunning and if you can reduce the monster movement you can just about outdistance Traps and Normal Attacks. By having Bone Darts, Rawhide Headband or Circlet you have something to do when you need to move into position. The weapon benefits from speed increases and Frenzy.

The Antelope
I only got to fight one so far and like the Lion they can go down quite quickly. Some of its attacks specifically target melee weapons so you are safe from those. Some of its attacks target the furthest survivor so your archers will be hit and can be Trampled if you don’t spread them out. Always spread them out. Even on the Giant Stone Face.

The Butcher again
My conclusion about all Nemesis Monsters is it depends on their card draw. If it matches your setup you win. If it doesn’t you lose. If I had taken newbies into the fight they all would have died as the Mood Screaming came into play on turn one. As I took my experienced people who had high Insanity they were getting +1 Strength and +1 Speed every 3 rounds from Infectious Lunacy. They made short work of him and I got a Cleaver out of it. Which is what you want for a party of ranged attackers right? Many Butcher attacks are only 1 damage as it kills through Bleed. This means your unarmoured archers can be just as survivable as your tank. You can also give them bandages to use on the turns they need to move.

And then Murder killed off my two best peeps. Ranged Attacks don’t help you on that score.

The strategy is to fight Antelopes till the Kingsman to see how that works and then give the Phoenix a try for arrow upgrades.

And just because I have a tank doesn’t mean I can’t give him a bow.

Phoenix
 
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Phoenix Bird
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Blueskew wrote:

The game isn't in front of me, but I though that the L1 Butcher was a movement of 5. Or am I remembering incorrectly?
The Butcher can attack and thus move twice per round. 5+5=10

Phoenix
 
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Joseph Nudi
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Phoenix_Bird wrote:
Blueskew wrote:

The game isn't in front of me, but I though that the L1 Butcher was a movement of 5. Or am I remembering incorrectly?
The Butcher can attack and thus move twice per round. 5+5=10

Phoenix
Gotcha. So at least one should hit unless you were able to dash beyond 10/11 spaces in that case.
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Hmm, interesting stuff.

I was thinking a little, and think the 3 bow set right off the bat is a bit overkill (that's more than perfect luck would have gotten you, which is what I'm starting to consider when factoring in mods: I'm also playing with a modded game mode).

What are you thinking on the Hand? You don't have high attack volume, are you going to fight from his blind spot?

Also, that's gonna be hard before dash... then again, I'm starting to feel Hands of Heat should have triggered paint rather than heat, from a mechanical perspective of which is essential to fight bigger stuff.
 
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Phoenix Bird
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Screaming Antelopes
These are actually archer friendly. They do a lot of running about but obviously have to return to attack you. With Ranged you are never tempted to stand in the blind spot so won’t get kicked and as long as you spread yourself around you won’t get caught in any reactions. Make sure you use the diagonals. If you do you will not be bothered by Diabolical and its Trample effects. Level 1 & 2 were no problem.

The Kingsman
Dead! Me not him. My patsy (with Beacon Shield and everything) died in two turns. Even with Frenzy Drink your archers can’t get past the 3 battle pressure. You need to stand behind him and have someone learn King’s Step and they are toast next turn. Knocked away, knocked down and severely damaged. The Clawhead arrows only give the -1 Evasion on a Hit and Battle Pressure cancels the hit so you need to get rid of the Battle Pressure before they will take effect. By turn 7 I had lost two peeps and only done one wound. I threw in the towel.

The Clawhead Arrow
1/6+/6 Slow Monster gains -1 Evasion token on Hit
The logical thing is to fire it first to make everyone else have a better chance of hitting. It is Frenzy friendly however and so you can get 2/6+/7 out of it so be tempted to wait. It isn’t cumbersome either. At some stage you will need to move and so maybe save it until then as it is much more effective than the Bone Darts.

Phoenix
 
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Phoenix Bird
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spiralingcadaver wrote:
I was thinking a little, and think the 3 bow set right off the bat is a bit overkill
I didn’t start off with three bows or any bows as I had to complete the prologue and first Lion for the Cattarium to open up. By then I had enough resources to make three bows, two by design and a third sinew by chance.

As above the Hand was total disaster.

Phoenix
 
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