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Android: Netrunner» Forums » Rules

Subject: New Angeles Sol / Employee Strike Question rss

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Geekmate75
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Hello there !

New Angeles Sol :
Whenever an agenda is scored or stolen, you may play 1 current from HQ or Archives (paying its play cost).

Employee Strike :
This card is not trashed until another current is played or an agenda is scored.
The Corp's identity text box is blank.

Let's imagine Employee Strike is on the table.
So the New Angeles Sol has no power.
New Angeles scores an Agenda, kicking out Employee Strike.
Are we agree the corp cannot play 1 current from HQ or Archives ?

The trigger is when the corp scores, at this moment the text on NAS is blank.
 
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Nova Cat
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I would be inclined to agree that NAS doesn't get to trigger in this case, since the ability didn't exist when the triggering condition was met. That said, timing can be kind of fiddly in this game, so I'd like to see others' opinions.
 
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Nushura
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It does not trigger.

When the agenda is scored/stolen you check what conditions can trigger. Then the player causing them chooses order (first those of the active player).

After trashing Employee strike you do NOT check again if conditions are still satisfied, so it does not trigger. It is the same is if you do a Retrieval run to install a Datasucker (no counters are added to the sucker).
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Kārlis Jēriņš
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Nushura wrote:
It does not trigger.

When the agenda is scored/stolen you check what conditions can trigger. Then the player causing them chooses order (first those of the active player).

After trashing Employee strike you do NOT check again if conditions are still satisfied, so it does not trigger. It is the same is if you do a Retrieval run to install a Datasucker (no counters are added to the sucker).
You have a source for that? Because I don't see anything about this in the FAQ.
 
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Nushura
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This falls within the "the game has no memory" rule. As in, if I test run a Femme and scavenge it to reinstall it I do not need to return it to the top of the deck.

Similarly, when I score the agenda there is only one thing that would trigger. After the employee strike is removed there is no "oh, wait! that other effect also triggers when the agenda was scored"

Also, a quick google search agrees with me:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Netrunner/comments/3oibki/new_angle...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Netrunner/comments/3s5v4c/when_you_...
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Andrew Keddie
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It doesn't need to be in the FAQ. It's the same as PAD Campaign being installed by Tech Startup. It wasn't there at the start of turn trigger, so it wasn't active when the triggering event happened. You can't get a credit from it.

In the same way, if NASoL was blanked by Employee Strike (or Leela was blanked by Cerebral Static), when they score they don't have an ability to be triggered by the relevant score event until after the current trashes, when they get their ability back.

Triggers in Netrunner happen once, and all effects that can trigger enter a queue to be resolved. It's not like Conquest where you have a reaction window and can keep reacting to things as long as the card doing the reaction has a valid reaction within a given window.
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Geekmate75
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All this games with different rules... can they make games with always the same rule !!!
 
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Taylor Kitto
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Zulyen wrote:
All this games with different rules... can they make games with always the same rule !!!
please no. that sounds boring.
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Geekmate75
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i'm jokin
 
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Kārlis Jēriņš
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
It doesn't need to be in the FAQ.

(..)

Triggers in Netrunner happen once, and all effects that can trigger enter a queue to be resolved. It's not like Conquest where you have a reaction window and can keep reacting to things as long as the card doing the reaction has a valid reaction within a given window.
See, that last paragraph does need to be in the FAQ (unless it's specified somewhere in the rulebook and I've missed it). Because the other way of resolving multiple reactions to the same trigger is also valid, and it needs to be specified somewhere how a game handles those.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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TheNameWasTaken wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
It doesn't need to be in the FAQ.

(..)

Triggers in Netrunner happen once, and all effects that can trigger enter a queue to be resolved. It's not like Conquest where you have a reaction window and can keep reacting to things as long as the card doing the reaction has a valid reaction within a given window.
See, that last paragraph does need to be in the FAQ (unless it's specified somewhere in the rulebook and I've missed it). Because the other way of resolving multiple reactions to the same trigger is also valid, and it needs to be specified somewhere how a game handles those.
Core Rules, p5.

Quote:
Active: An active card’s abilities affect the game and can be
triggered.
Inactive: An inactive card’s abilities do not affect the game
and cannot be triggered.
p.21

Quote:
Conditional abilities- In order for a conditional ability
to trigger, a trigger condition must be met. A conditional
ability can only be resolved once per trigger condition.
Trigger
conditions commonly use the terms “When” or “Whenever” in
their card text. An example of a conditional ability is the card
PAD Campaign, which reads, “Gain 1cr when your turn begins.”
If a conditional ability uses the word “may” in its description,
it is an optional conditional ability. The decision to trigger the
ability belongs to the player who controls the card, provided
the ability’s trigger condition is met. If a conditional ability
does not use the word “may” in its description, it is a required
conditional ability. It must be triggered when its trigger
condition is met
, although the exact time of resolution may
vary (see “Simultaneous Effects” on page 22).
(Emphasis added)

It's perhaps not as clear as you'd like it, but it is in there, and it's how the game has been understood to work for quite some time.
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Jacob Morris
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It's also pretty clearly laid out by the rules on simultaneous triggers.

It's probably worth mentioning that there's no such thing as "reactions" or "reaction windows" in Netrunner. The closest thing we have is "prevent/avoid", which actually behaves more like "interrupt".
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Ony Moose
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If the corp scores the agenda during the runner's turn (using Plan B) then the runner's effects would go first, trashing the Current, and then the New Angeles Sol would take effect as normal!
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Kandiru wrote:
If the corp scores the agenda during the runner's turn (using Plan B) then the runner's effects would go first, trashing the Current, and then the New Angeles Sol would take effect as normal!
It wouldn't matter. The Corp STILL had no ID ability WHEN THE TRIGGERING EVENT OCCURRED. It doesn't matter that the Current trashes first, the Corp's text box was blank when it happened!
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Andrew Brown
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i'm honestly confused what other way of resolving multiple triggers there is.


like, how is this ruling not consistent with other rulings, and why are people saying we need them all the same? (when in fact they already are)

i'm also really confused by the sentiment that no, that's boring. we want inconsistent rulings




as has been said multiple times, when the trigger effect happened, the corp's text box was blank and did not trigger (ie: was not added to the 'stack' in the first place)

it doesn't matter that the event went away and the corp's text became active again, whose turn it is, how the effects are resolved... because it was never put into the trigger queue in the first place



if you look at say, The Supplier rulings:

Data Folding on The Supplier
start of your turn, The Supplier is added to the queue and installs Data Folding
Data Folding was never added to the queue and does not resolve its start of turn effect because it wasn't active at the start of turn

Underworld Contracts
any hardware or resource with link on The Supplier
start of turn, Underworld Contracts and The Supplier are added to the queue
The Supplier goes first, installing another link, bringing the runner to 2 link
Underworld Contracts resolves, runner gets a credit

the reason why they are different is because Underworld Contracts was active at the time of the trigger and the state of the game changed by the time its effect resolved


the reverse would happen if you Aesop's away some card with link (bringing you down to 1) before resolving Underworld Contracts (not that that's a good idea of course)
 
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Taylor Kitto
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dr00 wrote:

i'm also really confused by the sentiment that no, that's boring. we want inconsistent rulings


He was saying he wished that all games had the same rules so you didn't have to relearn everything when you switch games (conquest was the example). It had nothing to do with consistency within netrunner.

"All these games with different rules... Can't they make games with always the same rules !!! "
 
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Kārlis Jēriņš
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dr00 wrote:
i'm honestly confused what other way of resolving multiple triggers there is.
As I understand it, this is how Netrunner does things:
1) Something happens (such as turn begins)
2) Check for effects that are triggered by said something, add them all to a queue
3) Resolve everything in the queue in some order
4) Done

This is how the same situation is handled in Star Wars LCG (and apparently in Conquest, though I haven't played it myself):
1) Something happens (such as turn begins)
2) Find an effect that is triggered by said something
3) If such an effect was found, resolve it, otherwise done
4) Go to 2)

The key difference being that Netrunner uses this queue, while other LCGs check for the presence of more reactions after resolving each one. So there you have two equally valid ways of approaching this situation. And the fact that different LCGs use different approaches to this makes it a bit harder for someone who knows one to learn another (because this is not the only difference; for example, in SWLCG attachments must constantly maintain a legal attachment state or be discarded, but there's no such requirement in LotR LCG).
 
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Andrew Keddie
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TheNameWasTaken wrote:
The key difference being that Netrunner uses this queue, while other LCGs check for the presence of more reactions after resolving each one. So there you have two equally valid ways of approaching this situation. And the fact that different LCGs use different approaches to this makes it a bit harder for someone who knows one to learn another (because this is not the only difference; for example, in SWLCG attachments must constantly maintain a legal attachment state or be discarded, but there's no such requirement in LotR LCG).
Yeah, this took me by surprise when I started playing Conquest. Finding out that you can react to things that weren't true when the triggering event actually happened, but now are because of another previous reaction, kinda blew my mind a little because I was used to how Netrunner does things. I'm ok now, I've compartmentalised the two rulesets. It did lead to a lot of incorrect assumptions on my part in the beginning though. I've since learned not to carry rules from one game into another, even when the games come from the same company.

(EDIT: That reads like a dig, it's not meant as one!)
 
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