Daniel B-G
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Re: Top 300 games that I might not like
Boring is a very non-descript way of explaining your distaste for something. It merely expresses a negative without any objective rationalisation as it relates entirely to subjective feelings about an experience. You may wish to clarify what you mean by it.

I just assumed you mean that the theme is thin and not immediately accessible but I went to your collection to try and back that up though and you rate Brass, Le Havre and Castles of Burgundy at 8, so I have literally no idea what you mean by boring.

Hansa Teutonica is pretty abstracted and it really does shine with 4 or 5 seasoned gamers. I certainly wouldn't expect it to do well with a 6 year old, and it also sounds like your wife isn't the right audience as well. I played it with my wife, who tends to prefer more apparent themes, and she absolutely loved it. She didn't mind the lack of theme here as the game is just aggressive and in your face. The fun with this game is once you push past the artwork you'll find that the game is a tense knife fight.
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Re: Top 300 games that I might not like
That's a tough call. There isn't really enough information on specifically what you found boring to say what else you might dislike. Saying a game is dry is a valid opinion, but not something that is easy to quantify compared to a different game. It might also be helpful to know what games you do like.


I'd certainly recommend waiting on buying expansions until you have played a game at least once. It also sounds like you need to make a concentrated effort to play some of the games you already own that have never been played before you buy any more. Beyond that, read as many reviews as possible for a game and watch some videos too. Don't just pay attention to what are the "highest rated" games, the game needs to sound fun to you regardless of what other people think, and personally I can usually read a few reviews and/or watch some videos and get a good sense of that for myself.
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Re: Top 300 games that I might not like
Sometimes it's hard to even know why you find something boring, as it's something you just feel (or perhaps, lack of feel)... so what might help is to go into the ratings for those games, and look at the comments of low ratings. You'll probably find some where you'll think, "yes, I totally agree, THAT is why I don't like this game". You'll probably find common elements between the two games you don't like, and then you can compare that to descriptions of games you haven't played.

For example, one of the biggest factors that makes a game boring to me is lack of interaction between players.
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Re: Top 300 games that I might not like
robininni wrote:
Okay, so I broke out Hansa Teutonica the other day and played a two player game with my 6 year old.

Honestly this just had to fail. Hansa Teutonica is a complex game and more important a game that is pretty hard to get into. I've also seen adult gamers struggle in their first game here, it's not intuitive to build a strategy here and to do useful moves.
It's also a game with zero luck, so the best player will almost very time win. Your son won't win a game where you do not let him win or help him to a degree where it's you playing for him.

To be successfull with you family I'd pick games with
- a stronger theme
- a lower weight (maybe <2.5)
- maybe some luck, so inferior players may win from time to time
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Re: Top 300 games that I might not like
I would suggest not looking at the ratings or if it's in the top X games on a certain site. If you see a game that you might want to purchase, read reviews and watch review videos. If it's in the top 200 to 300 games on BGG, it's going to have reviews and probably video reviews, if not actual play videos (like table top). Reviews and the like will give a moe in depth look into the game than just the back of the box. This should give you a better understanding of the game, and then you can say "this reminds of this game", and depending if you like or dislike it, whether or not you want to purchase it.
 
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Re: Top 300 games that I might not like
Realistically playing a heavy euro style strategy game with a 6 year old is not the target audience. Hansa Teutonica will be too heavy for the average 12 year old, even though that game is rated for 12 and up.

So if your 6 year old is going to be one of your regular participants most of the top rated games are not going to be designed with some one of his age in mind. Even something light like Sushi Go! is designed for ages 8 and up. An entry level worker placement game like Lords of Waterdeep is designed for ages 12 and up and that sounds about right. Certainly some kids are better at picking up these things at an earlier age than others, but it's not surprising that playing most of the top rated strategy games with a six year old would be boring even if they are bright for their age.
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Darrell Hanning
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Re: Top 300 games that I might not like
If you like Brass because of the game's attempts to integrate the theme, then you might like other Martin Wallace games. (I tend to find designers I like, then pick up their other efforts.) I'd recommend Tinners' Trail and possibly London, for the whole family. His most recent effort, Ships, looks to be another solid effort of his. Of course, Steam/Age of Steam are classics of his, too. Automobile is another great design of his, too.
 
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I own but haven't played Hansa Teutonica but I've researched a bit and I believe that it isn't favored as a two player game.

Presumably the dynamics change with more players and you may not have gotten a good feel for what it offers.

PS, the reportedly suboptimal 2 player is the main reason I haven't broken it out myself.

EDIT: yep, 2 player "not recommended" on the HT page.
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Well personally i loved Hansa but found TM to be a bit meh.. Dont think either game is best with 2 tho.

If you must then i would probably say you wont enjoy El Grande. You would maybe find it "boring"
 
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Let kids be kids -- but in my experience, gamer people tend to push their kids hard to play adult-level games. I think it does them no favors. But enough about that.

I would probably look in the comments section of a game I was considering for "dry cube pusher" and stay away ... and look for games where people praised the theme. I don't like most sheep's milk cheeses, so I stay away from them, but occasionally there's even a sheep's milk cheese I will eat if it's made right. So, it's pretty tough to say you won't like this because you don't like that, unless it's a broad category, like programmed movement, co-ops, or hidden traitor games.
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maybe if you told us you personal 5 or 10 most highly rated games, not the BGG rank.

anyway - you should take a look at Fresco as a possible addition to your collection.


I also find, watching a video or 2, and looking at the comments help me decide how to better avoid duds, that said, I think we all get the occasional disappointing game.
 
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My six year old understands the mechanisms to Kanban: Driver's Edition, but the strategy is far from his mind when playing it. So, until that cutthroat "I want to find a way to win" attitude shows up after losing consistantly, the drive for making the game a challenge for others will be lacking. So, a dry game like HT is going to be very lackluster for a 6 year old, though they may see what to do, they may not thwart your plans with careful strategy that plays out over a few rounds. The gameplay is what makes games like HT come alive, not the mechansisms themselves. Tigris & Euphrates was this way for many - tiles and wooden discs and cubes - dry, boring. But to the gamer who dives in with seeing the whole picture as a leader of an army and tactical plays and strategical plays are what win the game, will love it.

As for other dry games in the top 100 - many, many. Multiplayer solitaire games tend to be caclulating and dry, so try before buy on most.
PS You might have to drive to Forth Worth to get a gamestore that has one to try. Yes, I have been to Stephensville, TX. Yes, I remember vividly, taking a jump unexepectedly on a road with a dip in Stephensville back in 89 - my head still hurts - seat belts are a good idea - wish I believed that back then.
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Pandemic
 
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robininni wrote:
Okay, so I think what many of your are saying is that, even if I don't realize it, a major factor in my dislike of a game like Hansa Teutonica is not having enough mature players. I can subscribe to that. I can see that it would make a difference. However, that doesn't explain my wife not liking it either from the the first moment of explaining the game and then actually playing a few turns.

Mature is the one thing, the other thing is if the person likes to really dig into solving an abstract puzzle. If a person does not like this, it doesn't mean the person is not mature, or not smart (i know several graduate degree gamers who strongly prefer lighter, more thematic titles).
For such an "abstract puzzle" game, it is usually not enough to be able to do correct moves (I think this is what you son is doing? I mean he is 6yo, it is great when he can play a complex game correctly), to have fun you should be able to good moves and understand why they are good. This is also where real interaction evolves in such games.

Quote:
Can anyone just list some of these type games?

I didn't dig though the whole top300, but from the first page e.g. El Grande, Tigris & Euphrates,Trajan and Bora Bora would go in the same direction as Hansa Teutonica (abstract, complex, higher weight,...). But overall the question "Which game is good for me?" is probably the more relevant one.
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How about lighter Feld's titles, castles of Burgundy,
Notre dame, the windrose one, his newest, etc.
Knizia: samurai, Taj Mahal, ra.
Moon: TtR, elfenland, my mind is blank, but he has more
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robininni wrote:
Okay, so I broke out Hansa Teutonica the other day and played a two player game with my 6 year old.
Oh dear. 6 year old, the humanity!
(yeah, wouldn't wish this on a 15 y.o. let alone younger).
Quote:
It's the total dryness of it. It's just boring is how my wife would describe it.


Hm. My initial though is that you simply should stay away from euros, though it seems like you like them. (To me Le Havre is quite similar in how its terrible to Hansa Teutonica).

My best guess is that you need themed games, themes that make sense. Or maybe you need attractive visuals (could be both, or just one of these).

Ehm, you like Castles of Burgundy? Er, that's the epitome of a dry, themeless, procedural euro. Because that's would be my first guess what to avoid.

robininni wrote:
It was dry with little theme and nothing but cubes to interact with.

That's how I would describe all Feld's games as well.

No idea. I tried, but hm, avoid themeless games with a map?

Quote:
typically (and my wife) want to enjoy a game for the mechanics and neatness of the game itself, not for the secondary interaction if brings out via its mechanics. This is really hard to describe, but it's like some games a boring and blah until you become 'one' with the game and have the full complement of players and then the game shines. I suspect this is HT all the way. Other games are fun from the start and depend less on the amount or ages of players but more on the interactions with the game itself versus the derived interactions with others THROUGH the game.

So, no games that rely on interaction of players, you instead want each player intereacting with the game? Ok. So you want MPS games, and not interactive ones (but you like Brass and Eclipse? er)

Ok, stay out of interactive games (everything that's called "nasty"). Maybe also away from games with a shared map?

No area control, no dudes on a map, no negotiation games, no bluffing games, no on board spatial play. Is this more along your line?

No El Grande, No chaos in the old world, no Intrigue, no Cosmic Encounter, no Ginkgopolis, no Quantum, no Power Grid, no Mission Red Planet... err... am I getting somewhere with this?
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dkearns wrote:
yep, 2 player "not recommended" on the HT page.


The 2-player game actually involves extra rules to "cope" with having only 2 players: effectively it is a variant, that just happens to be included in the main rulebook. The game is definitely not designed for 2 and shines on the interaction that comes with 4-5 players in particular. At this player count it is one of the best games I have played (even if, admittedly, a bit short on theme, which might annoy some players and has been discussed in this thread). I *might* still play with 3 players, but it wouldn't be as good, and I'd never bother to play it 2-player as there are many better games at that count.
 
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My daughter loved (and still loves) abstracts when she was that age. Straightforward gameplay and few, simple rules. It's the strategy that you slowly learn with abstracts.

Hive
Hey, That's My Fish!
YINSH
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robininni wrote:
I still think I could like HT with more time and the right amount of players however, it is lacking in something.... just not sure how to adequately describe it. Something about all actions revolving around moving cubes... and only cubes (okay, the bonus tiles rarely, but still...).

Me I liked the on board interaction, I just hated everything else (player boards).

Quote:
How many other games can you think of that only have cubes/wooden pieces that are all the same (merchants basically = trader) and no other components that make up the every turn game mechanics?

Here's the thing - I can't tell if this is about on board play (in this case avoid abstracts and games like Torres), or if this is about lack of visual representation (in which case avoid Dominant Species).

Maybe you just don't like cubes?
 
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sgosaric wrote:


Maybe you just don't like cubes?


whistle try this game just to be sure that is the case whistle
 
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sgosaric wrote:
robininni wrote:
I still think I could like HT with more time and the right amount of players however, it is lacking in something.... just not sure how to adequately describe it. Something about all actions revolving around moving cubes... and only cubes (okay, the bonus tiles rarely, but still...).

Me I liked the on board interaction, I just hated everything else (player boards).
If you compare it to music, Hansa Teutonica is very sophisticated Jazz - demanding, interesting, definitly high quiality music... But for a special mood/audience only, usually I prefer music that is less demanding, more convinient. For me it's a game that I aknowledge to be a brilliant design - but it's not a game I love.
 
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I would say stay away from:

Troyes
The Voyages of Marco Polo
Trajan
Terra Mystica
Village
Suburbia
Lords of Waterdeep


lean towards all these which you seem to own:
(however none of these I think are appropriate for a 6yr old.)

Agricola
At the Gates of Loyang
Keyflower
Dominion
Splendor
Puerto Rico
Five Tribes
Among the Stars
Roll for the Galaxy
Eclipse

and maybe these few you dont
San Juan
Fleet
Smash Up
Subdivision
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Which brings us full circle. You may want to clarify in your own mind what you mean by boring.

HT is in my mind superficially boring, but belies an interactive core that really shines when you have players that are invested in the outcome. If, however you have players that are disinterested because they cannot get past the graphics/dryness/abstractness it's going to be a joyless experience.

I had one guy in my group who had a long list of games that he did and did not like and his main criticism for those games were that it was arbitrary and lacked a narrative quality. For comparison here are the lists of games he liked and disliked.

Dislike
Keyflower
Race for the Galaxy
Troyes
Cosmic Encounter
Suburbia
Concordia
Glass Road

Like
Imperial
Brass
Trajan
Castles of Burgundy
Goa
Village
Cyclades

That's just to name a few. There is no pattern or rhyme or reason to this. It's a combination of theme, playing experience and most importantly, a psychological preparedness to engage with the game.

I tried to use his dislikes to discern what he would and would not like, but my odds of getting it right were 50:50. He didn't have a way of expressing what he disliked in a way that anybody else could understand.
 
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try your copy of Castles of Mad King Ludwig? a six year old would love making a castle from room shapes, even if there was no game built into it. Did that game go over well?
You own 1000 more games than I do. Just pick one and play it. If it fails to spark that wow factor revisit in a year, move on to the next.
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@DAAAN:

I think often daily condition plays an important role, so some of those games coudl be on the other side of the list if you had played them another day. Sometimes the player who hates losing loses and drags down the group, or an enthusiatic player drags other players with his good mood. I've read that games that are explained enthuasiaticly get better reception as games where the rules are read aloud. Sometimes it's just late in the evening, people are to tired to enjoy a brain burning game. Sometimes one player is lucky with his first strategy attemp and wins the first game easily, other games are very open (which is more interesting).


I played HT twice with different groups, one liked it, experimented, one felt lost and did by no means enjoy it.
Of the games you listed I have experience with (sometimes different, but similiar groups):

Concordia (2x like)
Castles of Burgundy(1x like, 2x neutral)
Village (neutral to like)
Hansa Teutonica (1x like, 1x hate)

Hard to read sth. out of this...
 
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