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Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Torpedoes - waste of points outside of Epic? rss

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Will Morgan
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Just curious if anyone has had success with torpedoes outside of epic play. It seems to me that most ordinance is weak with the exception of:

Cluster Missiles
Proton Rockets
Seismic Charges
Proximity Mines

and *maybe*:
Connor Net
Proton Bombs $$$
Concussion Missiles
Advance Homing Missile (specific builds)

No torpedoes seem efficient unless you are sure to face swarms. Just looking for some opinions/thoughts.

Thanks!
 
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Jason Garman
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I haven't used much ordnance, but I have to agree that most torpedoes (and missiles) are not worth taking in standard play. Lots of them have special cases where they are decent but not great, like the ones you have listed. Here are a couple more:
Flechette Torpedoes + Nera Dantels' ability
Plasma Torpedoes + free target locks (from FCS, Pilot abilites, etc.), but only really nice against heavily shielded targets.

Of course, Extra Munitions is probably the best upgrade for the torpedo slot, but that's probably not what you were asking about.
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Sam Cook
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My feeling is that ordinance is still hard to justify for the most part. I'd rather use those extra few points on upgrading my ships to better PS pilots and/or more consistent upgrades.

Many ships that have missile slots also have a cannon slot which have similar effects, costs roughly the same, and can be used an unlimited number of times.

I think bombs are looking a lot better recently, especially with certain pilot abilities, and I'm a fan of the new cluster mines.
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J Chav
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My favorite comparison is HLC.

HLC 7 points - Can use without Focus/TL. R2-3 4 dice crits to hits with initial roll

Homing Missile + Extra Munitions 7 points - Need TL but can use on the dice. R2-3 4 dice and defender can't use evade tokens. Can only use twice.

Pretty similar and the main difference is HM you need a TL but keep your crits and block evades. HLC though you don't need the TL (which is huge) and you can use it multiple times assuming you live that long.

Anyways the TL is where it really falls down for me as if you are lower PS it's quite difficult to acquire.
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Will Morgan
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well I'm trying one of these lists today (leaning toward Imperials) - I'll give a report after

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Talonbane Cobra — Kihraxz Fighter 28
Crack Shot 1
Glitterstim 2
Engine Upgrade 4
Ship Total: 35

Binayre Pirate — Z-95 Headhunter 12
Feedback Array 2
Ship Total: 14

Syndicate Thug — Y-Wing 18
Twin Laser Turret 6
Unhinged Astromech 1
BTL-A4 Y-Wing 0
Ship Total: 25

N'Dru Suhlak — Z-95 Headhunter 17
Lone Wolf 2
Cluster Missiles 4
Glitterstim 2
Ship Total: 25

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Redline" — TIE Punisher 27
Fire-Control System 2
Extra Munitions 2
Cluster Missiles 4
Cluster Missiles 4
Seismic Charges 2
Autothrusters 2
Ship Total: 43

Soontir Fel — TIE Interceptor 27
Push the Limit 3
Autothrusters 2
Targeting Computer 2
Royal Guard TIE 0
Ship Total: 34

Lieutenant Colzet — TIE Advanced 23
Accuracy Corrector 0
TIE/x1 0
Ship Total: 23
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Jason Garman
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Masterhit wrote:

"Redline" — TIE Punisher 27
Fire-Control System 2
Extra Munitions 2
Cluster Missiles 4
Cluster Missiles 4
Seismic Charges 2
Autothrusters 2
Ship Total: 43

Soontir Fel — TIE Interceptor 27
Push the Limit 3
Autothrusters 2
Targeting Computer 2
Royal Guard TIE 0
Ship Total: 34

Lieutenant Colzet — TIE Advanced 23
Accuracy Corrector 0
TIE/x1 0
Ship Total: 23
You might consider swapping one of Redline's Cluster Missiles out for something else like Plasma Torpedoes. Redline tends to get focused down pretty quickly, so it's unlikely he'll get all four Cluster Missiles fired, and it's nice to have something you can fire at range 3, instead of all 1-2.
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Will Morgan
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As it turned out Redline did get focused *almost* down - but he narrowly survived and ended up using three Cluster missiles and one Seismic Charge.

The Seismic finished off a Y-Wing that had unfortunately landed on a rock - and the Clusters did a ton of damage.

I didn't play him optimally - he was losing actions and generally in a tight spot - but Soontir and Colzet covered my mistakes.

My opponent's list was actually a terrible matchup for my list - so it was kind of a rout - but I think we both had fun and I got to try a pilot I've never flown (and ship) and munitions.

I agree with your tweak idea though. The Clusters really do work *great* because you are covered up with target locks and can use them on each shot in addition to using them for firing. When Redline has a focus it's a nightmare of damage. That said, i did have a round or two where I was not in the proper range band to shoot anything but my 2-dice pea-shooter.

I hadn't really flown Soontir before and had a *blast*. I didn't get punished for my poor moves because Redline was taking all the heat.

Colzet never had the chance to use his ability because I did a pretty poor job of flying him and needed the evades to try and keep him out of trouble. Next time I will try and fly him a bit better and have a target lock to spend for the sake of the potential additional suffering of my opponent.
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Yes, topedos are generally far worse than missiles IMHO. But as you ask for ordenance in general in your post (not topic), here is a list I've had success (online also, so not just local club):

Airen Cracken 19 (Total 20)
Crack Shot 1

Miranda Doni 29 (Total 48)
Twin Laser Turret 6
Ertra Munitions 2
Homing Missiles 5
Seismic Charges 2
Conner Net 4

Jan Ors 25 (Total 32)
Twin Laser Turret 6
Crack Shot 1

So Miranda gets about in range (or enemy flies with higher PS later to range) and gets focus. Then at shooting face Airen shoots some easy target (damage or not...) and gives TL to Miranda. Miranda shoots Homing Missile reducing own shields (to 5 dice) and Jan takes stress (to 6 dice). With TL (homing doesn't use, just requires) & focus you are looking like 1 crit & 5 hits ; evade can't be used. So for example stealth Soontir takes 1c+1h, if rolls perfectly. Poe takes 3s & 1c. Then Jan tries to finish off the target (remember though that crack shot requires arc). Well part of the success has been because people won't realize always beforehand how hard it hits. So kill Soontir / Poe after they have fired once or glitter N'Dru / Stressbot before they have fired even once.

Conner nets & Seismics are there because I just wanted to try ordnance with the list. But they are good against those who try to avoid the alpha strike. Anyway the list has had a good success, but Conner nets are rarely used. So if I would take this to tourney (prolly don't have balls for PS 8 ordanace list), I would drop Conner & get crew to Miranda and/or Jan.
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Necessary Evil
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Ordnance is still weak, mostly because you have to still use and action to get a lock or a focus to be able to deliver it.

Take the Miranda from the list above....

Miranda Doni 29 (Total 48)
Twin Laser Turret 6
Ertra Munitions 2
Homing Missiles 5
Seismic Charges 2
Conner Net 4

compare that to:

Miranda Doni 29 (Total 37)
Twin Laser Turret 6
Tactician 2

You have 11 extra points on there that wont do you much better than tlt does on its own and the Tactician will double stress people from time to time.

You are also not relying on some breakable combo that will be hard to pull off on a regular basis.

Bottom line, most concordance is still not worth it even after extra munitions.
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Justin Hare
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I have not been super impressed with ordinance, but my experience is limited. The one ordinance that has always delivered for me is seismic charges.

Using the cost of modifications, one hull is worth 3SP and 1 shield is worth 4. If the 2SP seismic charge can reliably do one damage per game it is worth it.

Now, throw that on a turret ship like a TLT K or Y. How often does it end up that the K wing or Y wing are being chased? For me, every time that I field them. I can almost always drop that charge to hit a chasing ship. So it is a very reliable 2SP on a turret bomber for me.
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malloc wrote:
..stuff...
Homing Missile from Doni is totally different than 2 stress. Homing Missile kills target, 2 stress is good for future rounds for some targets (like Soontir etc... but stresser still has to use attacks etc, can miss). Also the main source of 11 points difference is bombs, which give you amazing control. Swarm following? Drop seismic. Ace following? Hit him with conner. OK more to homing mssile... it stops enemy entering ranges 2-3 (unlike tactician... only range 2), bombs which are part of the deal hinder range 1. Now I know Malloc from online and the only reason he is not intimidated by Doni's homings is because he hasn't faced them (I assume). They kill one of your ships right away. Totally different from HLCs etc (HLC gets you 4 hits... 4 can be dodged by Soontir and he has evade on top of that.... 6 hits from homing vs only 4 dice & evade can't be used). Impressed MajorJuggler. Its got "only" 2 uses, but its enough.
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Ok again an online game. It does so much damage, people aren't used about it. 1 shotted advanced tie this time. So 6 hits vs advanced. If advanced has taken evade like usually (though if he had studied my list... maybe other action, because evade is useless), advanced rolls 3 * 3/8 evades = about 1. So it isn't even rare happening. Cracken fired other target, so did Jan. Point being that stressing target at range 2 is different than killing target at range 2-3.
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Jamie Snape
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I have read a lot of posts here and on the FFG boards about ordnance being a waste.

Is this then exactly why they could be made to work? As they are rarely used it provides a surprise element, something not often seen and therefore not necessarily planned for and practised against?
Non experienced players may not know the potential danger certain bombs/missiles/torpedoes present and therefore may be more suscetible to them working well, whilst the 'hardened pros' would spot the potential danger and fly accordingly, which provides your squad with an element of control.
An example would be (using one mentioned above) the ability to keep a swarm from range 1 of the rear of your ship merely with the presence of a bomb.

Just some thoughts, I could be way off target.
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Allen T
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The problem with ordinance, torpedoes especially, is that you need to spend points to do around the same damage as a normal attack backed by the actions needed to use them. Munitions Failsafe and Extra Munitions are overcosted, because spending MORE points on ordinance, something that already cost too many points, is not a fix.
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Will Morgan
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I think I agree with you - especially the part calling out torpedoes, which I can't see as useful outside of epic.

I am warming up to some of the bombs/mines and I think Proton Rockets and Cluster Missiles have a few very nice applications.
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Aamir Zakaria
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I think it's telling that none of the top 10 in this year's Worlds used ordnance, and only 2 of the top 32 did.
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Will Morgan
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azakaria wrote:
I think it's telling that none of the top 10 in this year's Worlds used ordnance, and only 2 of the top 32 did.
Agreed - however the ordinance ships that dominated the top 32 primarily were ones setup just to haul around TLTs. This doesn't make the point less valid however.

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I wonder if FFG made ordnance not count to point totals when the ships are lost, whether that would make ordnance more attractive for tournament play. It make little sense to load a ship with ordnance when it means that many more points will be lost.
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Will Morgan
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Interesting idea - maybe just ordinance unused?

I am going to stick with cluster missiles and some bombs if I get to play this week - and I'll give another report of their efficacy. Of course this is local friendly play and not tourney-level.
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J Chav
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ralpher wrote:
I wonder if FFG made ordnance not count to point totals when the ships are lost, whether that would make ordnance more attractive for tournament play. It make little sense to load a ship with ordnance when it means that many more points will be lost.
I like to think they made ordinance to have 4 x-wings with proton torpedoes to be 100 points. Just like 4 Academy's and 4 Obsidian equals 100 points. Then the bad design just continued for ordinance. Now they are trying to figure out how to make it viable without making it too good.
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