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Subject: Cover Art- facial features not of a new world native rss

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Michael Sosa
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I have not played this game but I have been considering buying it. It bothers me however that the cover art does not depict a native from Central or South America. The facial features are that of an African-European mixed race woman. A minor quibble perhaps but being from that part of the world this bothers me. It is like Hollywood failing to use ethnic actors to play ethnic roles.
 
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Randy Espinoza
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Re: Cover Art- Woman does not have facial features of a new world native
Belisarius88 wrote:
I have not played this game but I have been considering buying it. It bothers me however that the cover art does not depict a native from Central or South America. The facial features are that of an African-European mixed race woman. A minor quibble perhaps but being from that part of the world this bothers me. It is like Hollywood failing to use ethnic actors to play ethnic roles.
I'm glad you're fine with how accurate the attire of the everyday native Central/South American women is.

In all seriousness. I'm from central america: please don't.

There is a good game inside the box. The art is fine.

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Michael Sosa
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Re: Cover Art- Woman does not have facial features of a new world native
I have no opinion of how accurate anything else is in the art. However that woman's face is most certainly not from Central America were Cacao originates.
 
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Michael Sosa
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There would not have been African princesses migrating to the New World. It seems the art is trying to evoke the native culture which had been using cacao for thousands of years. But the face is the wrong culture.
 
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ozzy perez
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Lol. Ok
 
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Bruce Murphy
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I suggest that assigning strict racial features (something that doesn't actually exist anywhere) to a cartoon face indicates that you are taking things far too seriously.

I encourage anyone tempted to make such claims to use simple image searches to discover the large variations (and non-disjointness) of the two named groups.

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David B
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For what it is worth, the Cacao tokens don't look like actual cacao either
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Michael Sosa
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Most of the responses like the one above are silly ones. I don't know why people feel a need to ridicule someone else's perceived legitimate criticism. If you have nothing intelligent to say on a topic then hold your tongue.

Perhaps the people making the above comments are ignorant of racial differences and thus do not perceive the issue that someone who isn't ignorant of those differences would notice. Really when I saw the cover for this game I was struck by two things: the beautiful green colors and a face that did not look Central American. I showed it to another person from Central America to get their opinion and confirm my initial impression.

Or perhaps most euro gamers are just ignorant of history. They just care about mechanics and ignore the theme. Then who cares what the person on the cover looks like.

I like history. I like euro games that have good thematic integration. The cover of this game works against that integration because it is the wrong face.

Please keep your non-intelligent comments to yourself.
 
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Greg
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It's fine that you don't like the cover, plenty of people have issues with art on box covers or with components.

It is a nice game though, so the cover of the box shouldn't dissuade you from trying it out. You may not like it, but it doesn't affect the game itself.

 
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Tomello Visello
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Belisarius88 wrote:
Most of the responses like the one above are silly ones. I don't know why people feel a need to ridicule someone else's perceived legitimate criticism. If you have nothing intelligent to say on a topic then hold your tongue.
I read your opening message and accepted it at face value. Similarly, I take "the one {immediately} above" at face value, a straight-forward observation. I do not see anything in it that is hurtful or attacking. I do sense your ire but sorry, I do not think that is one that needs to be to picked upon.

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Michael Sosa
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Anyway this isn't the first time I have seen this type of issue. When Valley Games reprinted Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage they redid the face of that famous general I suppose to give it a more North African / Punic / Phoenician look. I'm not qualified to judge how accurate the effort was but I certainly prefer the original cover- perhaps displaying my pro-European bias!

See for yourselves:
 
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Bruce Murphy
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Belisarius88 wrote:
Most of the responses like the one above are silly ones. I don't know why people feel a need to ridicule someone else's perceived legitimate criticism. If you have nothing intelligent to say on a topic then hold your tongue.
I think the people intimating that bringing up the best-left-for-dead concept of a hard-edged race as inappropriate are being entirely intelligent about this.

It is interesting that you label this as "perceived legitimate criticism", although it inconsistent that you consider it somehow above further criticism by others.

For what it's worth, I doubt that your statement that the box art doesn't look much like your mental image of someone from the region, would have attracted nearly as much attention without your subsequent claim:

Quote:
The facial features are that of an African-European mixed race woman
It's a lot easier to claim things about box-art screw-ups when you can present an objective factual basis for the alternative e.g. Murano, rather than an attempt to assign a precise "race" to a cartoon.

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Michael Sosa
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Sure I could start linking to images of Mayan folks in Central America but I thought that sort of evidence unnecessary. Anyone with an interest can look for themselves. Regarding my thoughts on the ancestry of the woman depicted on the image, clearly that is just an educated guess. I could point out to the specific features that lead me to that conclusion but the important issue is not her actual race but that she doesn't look anything like a Central American native.
 
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Randy Espinoza
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Belisarius88 wrote:
Sure I could start linking to images of Mayan folks in Central America but I thought that sort of evidence unnecessary. Anyone with an interest can look for themselves. Regarding my thoughts on the ancestry of the woman depicted on the image, clearly that is just an educated guess. I could point out to the specific features that lead me to that conclusion but the important issue is not her actual race but that she doesn't look anything like a Central American native.
It's call "artistic license".
The cover of a game is not (supposed to be) academic level material. If you look at game boxes you'll find gods and orcs, mythological creatures, Egyptian kings, traders of many ethnicities and from many different historical times, famous historical figures, etc. I'm not sure I've ever worried if any of those are accurately represented and I don't think a highly stylized cartoon is going to change that.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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Belisarius88 wrote:
Sure I could start linking to images of Mayan folks in Central America but I thought that sort of evidence unnecessary. Anyone with an interest can look for themselves. Regarding my thoughts on the ancestry of the woman depicted on the image, clearly that is just an educated guess. I could point out to the specific features that lead me to that conclusion but the important issue is not her actual race but that she doesn't look anything like a Central American native.
I guess I'd better not mention the arguments about African-similar features on Olmec carvings in case your head explodes, right?

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Bruce Murphy
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Belisarius88 wrote:
Anyway this isn't the first time I have seen this type of issue. When Valley Games reprinted Hannibal: Rome vs Carthage they redid the face of that famous general I suppose to give it a more North African / Punic / Phoenician look. I'm not qualified to judge how accurate the effort was but I certainly prefer the original cover- perhaps displaying my pro-European bias!
No, they commissioned new art because they had no rights to the old art. They likely waved the old box at the new artist and said 'make it like that, our box is landscape, maybe some horses, don't get us sued'.

You're overthinking this.

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Michael Sosa
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Artistic license I understand but I don't think that's applicable here. The artist was clearly attempting to capture a particular theme- Mesoamerica, and drew the face of a person that doesn't resemble the people who lived in Mesoamerica.

Bruce I don't know what African features of Olmec carvings you are referring to. I spent a whole day at the Mexican Museo Nacional de Antropología (www.mna.inah.gob.mx) and do not recollect any African connections. Please enlighten us with your knowledge.

I'm not sure what the deal with the new art for Hannibal was but I do remember grumblings about his new face. Since we don't really know what Hannibal looked liked those grumblings are more about aesthetics I think.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/234073/reprint-great/page/1

In the case of Cacao the fault is much clearer. We know what those people looked liked. Some of them are still around. The stylized woman does not look like them.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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As you've set yourself up as an expert on all things related to this, I'm sure you already know. I mean a whole day, and there are still some around.

Go look it up. We'll wait.

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Michael Sosa
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Alright so now we know you were just making things up as you went along. End of conversation with you.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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You've heard of the Olmec, yes? Or didn't that come up in your day?

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Martin Gregory
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The fact that the OP has not garnered a single thumb throughout this topic up to this point says it all.
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Michael Sosa
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Popularity does not strike to the relevance or accuracy of my criticism.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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Belisarius88 wrote:
Popularity does not strike to the relevance or accuracy of my criticism.
A failure to appreciate some core historical truths around "race" does, though.

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Michael Sosa
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Bruce you keep making unsupported statements. I'm still waiting for you to discuss your Olmec / Africa connection. Until you do that please keep out of the conversation.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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I was waiting to see if you'd heard of the Olmec in your detailed one afternoon study of all of mesoamerican history. When you've gone and figured out who they are, you'll be wanting to look at the quite detailed carvings they did.

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