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Subject: We're so moderate, look at us rss

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I have had several pretty reasonable left leaning friends post this article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-...

It makes some good points in less than (as I put it in my most sarcastic fashion) hysterical panting terms. But I'm not going to talk about that as we've talked this issue to death and beyond in RSP.

But anyway. So of course, all the liberals embrace it. And simultaneously pat themselves on the back for being so open-minded to identify with the right on this one issue. We're so moderate. Oh, and this also gives said "moderates" the chance to also pat themselves on the back that they were never so ridiculous in their day. Also get off their lawn!

I tend to chalk this up to the aging of liberals that I know. It's so much worse now then when we walked 10 miles in the snow to get to school. What's the world coming to?! Kids today!

I wonder what the parents of those crazy hippies in the 60s were thinking. Face it, liberals. You are the parents now.
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Re: Okay I'm sick and tired of the left apologizing
So you want... what? Liberals to double down on it? "Yeah, they were demanding action, people getting fired, apologies, silencing views they don't like. And they SHOULD!"
 
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Deleted112516 wrote:
I have had several pretty reasonable left leaning friends post this article:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/11/the-new-...

It makes some good points in less than (as I put it in my most sarcastic fashion) hysterical panting terms. But I'm not going to talk about that as we've talked this issue to death and beyond in RSP.

But anyway. So of course, all the liberals embrace it. And simultaneously pat themselves on the back for being so open-minded to identify with the right on this one issue. We're so moderate. Oh, and this also gives said "moderates" the chance to also pat themselves on the back that they were never so ridiculous in their day. Also get off their lawn!

I tend to chalk this up to the aging of liberals that I know. It's so much worse now then when we walked 10 miles in the snow to get to school. What's the world coming to?! Kids today!

I wonder what the parents of those crazy hippies in the 60s were thinking. Face it, liberals. You are the parents now.
So are we calling this non-outrage outrage?

I am not sure what you are criticizing here other than that maybe you don't like your facebook friends?
 
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GameCrossing wrote:
So you want... what? Liberals to double down on it? "Yeah, they were demanding action, people getting fired, apologies, silencing views they don't like. And they SHOULD!"
I want them to examine the claims made in articles. I want them to question generalizing stories to be the "sky is falling" memes that conservatards want them to be. As far as I know, there isn't a rash of profs losing their jobs due to crazy town libtard students wanting safe spaces and trigger warnings. Why humor this dialog?
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rylfrazier wrote:


So are we calling this non-outrage outrage?

I am not sure what you are criticizing here other than that maybe you don't like your facebook friends?
See above. Shit DG just posted it was "worrisome" that this was the case. Seriously? It's worrisome? It's outrageous when it happens to one person. It's only worrisome if it's a trend that is out of control.
 
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Deleted112516 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
So you want... what? Liberals to double down on it? "Yeah, they were demanding action, people getting fired, apologies, silencing views they don't like. And they SHOULD!"
I want them to examine the claims made in articles. I want them to question generalizing stories to be the "sky is falling" memes that conservatards want them to be. As far as I know, there isn't a rash of profs losing their jobs due to crazy town libtard students wanting safe spaces and trigger warnings. Why humor this dialog?
Because if not put in check, it will embolden future efforts to be punitive towards those who don't say the "correct" things. If they get away with one instance, just think how much good these kids think they'll do in the world when they REALLY roll up their sleeves based on their first success... or at least their first non-loss in the court of public opinion.
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GameCrossing wrote:
Deleted112516 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
So you want... what? Liberals to double down on it? "Yeah, they were demanding action, people getting fired, apologies, silencing views they don't like. And they SHOULD!"
I want them to examine the claims made in articles. I want them to question generalizing stories to be the "sky is falling" memes that conservatards want them to be. As far as I know, there isn't a rash of profs losing their jobs due to crazy town libtard students wanting safe spaces and trigger warnings. Why humor this dialog?
Because if not put in check, it will embolden future efforts to be punitive towards those who don't say the "correct" things. If they get away with one instance, just think how much good these kids think they'll do in the world when they REALLY roll up their sleeves based on their first success... or at least their first non-loss in the court of public opinion.
WTF. Fucking grow a backbone, administrations of the world. Don't cave to craziness. If there's a (pretty) legit complaint, then do everything to look into it and correct it. But don't sacrifice people's careers because you want to be politically correct. And don't write some whining BS piece about how students made you do it. You have all the power.

Jesus. Blame who is responsible. You should pretty much expect immaturity from college students. Shit, it's like no one in RSP has watched Animal House or something. Fuck.
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The biggest problem with the reasoning of people who push 'pc' arguments is the assumption that these cultural battles actually matter. But they dont, not really. Taking down a Confederate flag isnt going to solve endemic for blacks, nor the problems of police paying their budgets by ticketing the poor and colored with horrible broken windows strategies. But these cultural battles are easier to fight and win. They're political crack.

What I find immensely funny and ironic is that the 'anti-pc' crowd thinks these bullshit cultural battles are important as well. Look at Ted Cruz and religious consrrvatives hyperventilating about the movie Frozen, and its 'message' of just doing your own thing, "Letting Christ Go" and other bullshit.

Both the Left and the Right are more concerned with winning talking points and arguments iver symbols, because solving problems is hard. But the hysterical part is how worked up a SJW or a Gamergater can be over such ephemera.

That said, I generally side with the SJW's, because, excesses aside, they are at least trying to do something about decades of inertia and lazy thinking on topics of race and gender. They just need to realize that not every subject is rooted in these topics.

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I think what gets lost in these battles about political correctness, free speech, and so-called "censorship of dissenting views," is the fact that people really do face real hatred, discrimination, and harassment in this country, and it really does affect their lives.

All of the people I ever see on RSP complaining about "SJWs" and "PC bullshit" seem to be under the impression that claims of sexism or racism are completely unfounded in this tolerant modern age, and that any conversations held today about oppression, or privilege, are simply fabrications of oversensitive delicate types who don't really face real adversity in life.

Yet just today, we literally witnessed a white supremacist come onto a thread in RSP, calling other users "niggers" and spouting xenophobic sentiments in graphic rape imagery. And what's worse, this was not the first time we have seen something like this happen here. This shit is not fake. Racism is alive and well today.

And you know what we did? We banned him. Did we "unfairly stifle his speech?" Were we "intolerant of an opposing viewpoints?" No. We banned the POS because we understand that some speech should not be tolerated, and that some people should not be asked to subject themselves to speech that perpetuates hatred, or that violates their sense of safety or their integrity or their human dignity. Sometimes this isn't just about free speech: it's about granting others freedom from harmful speech.

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Deleted112516 wrote:
I wonder what the parents of those crazy hippies in the 60s were thinking. Face it, liberals. You are the parents now.
Fuck you, Sue. I'm not the one being mortified by coming face-to-face with the improper. Many of today's youth are my parents.

Crazy hippies in the 60's were wolfing down satire like this, and their parents were scandalized. My mere referencing this scandalizes a large, vocal, and emotionally unhinged portion of today's social progressives:





 
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Unsurprising that this generation is behaving this way. They've been encouraged their whole life to externalize their identity to the point that any conflicting viewpoint or perceived criticism or slight is tantamount to annihilation. When a person has no strong sense of self they are more likely to react emotionally instead of rationally because they have no firm sense of what really matters. The chickens of the monetary system are coming home to roost in that the heavy regimentation, constant advertising, appeal to fear and insecurity and the lack of critical thinking and introspection that defines society these days are producing people like this. I would feel sorry for the professors and others who are now dealing with them, but they too are now promoters and guardians of the status quo, stuck without much recourse in their positions of authority and guidance.

It will become increasingly hilarious and sad to see what happens next.
 
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I think this just comes down to the fact that there is so much news out there that there is more signal to noise than there has ever been, and the more crazy you write your articles, the more clicks and shares you get, either to agree or to disagree.

If I write an article saying "Bob the teacher was fired, here's why it's an injustice in this specific case in my opinion" I might get a little minor buzz if my article is well written.

If I write "Bob the Teacher was Fired: You Will Probably Be Next and Also It's the End of Western Democracy" I will get I would estimate about 20x to 200x times the attention, just because any attention is good attention in the new media world. "Journalistic Integrity" doesn't get you ad buys. Clicks, links and shares get you ad buys.

It's just like if a conservative writes "hey, crime has gone up a little bit on the Mexican border, is this something we should be worried about?" he will get a lot less attention than if he writes "Obama's disastrous immigration policy will probably cause you to be murdered, death of America coming soon".

You really have to be super selective about where you get your news, IME. I browse a lot of news sites, but for substance, I mostly stick to The Economist for that reason.
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I have to agree with the author of the article on this 100%.

Quote:
Another Silliman resident declared in a campus publication, “I have had to watch my friends defend their right to this institution. This email and the subsequent reaction to it have interrupted their lives. I have friends who are not going to class, who are not doing their homework, who are losing sleep, who are skipping meals, and who are having breakdowns.” One feels for these students. But if an email about Halloween costumes has them skipping class and suffering breakdowns, either they need help from mental-health professionals or they’ve been grievously ill-served by debilitating ideological notions they’ve acquired about what ought to cause them pain.
Only I would say both. They have been ill-served and NOW need to seek professional help.

shake


This last bit is far too true as well.

Quote:


These students were offended by one person’s words, and were free to offer their own words in turn. That wasn’t enough for them, so they spat on different people who listened to those words and called one minority student a traitor to his race. In their muddled ideology, the Yale activists had to destroy the safe space to save it.
Orwellian double think is alive and well.

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Deleted112516 wrote:
See above. Shit DG just posted it was "worrisome" that this was the case. Seriously? It's worrisome? It's outrageous when it happens to one person. It's only worrisome if it's a trend that is out of control.
no prof left behind
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Meerkat wrote:
Quote:
These students were offended by one person’s words, and were free to offer their own words in turn. That wasn’t enough for them, so they spat on different people who listened to those words and called one minority student a traitor to his race. In their muddled ideology, the Yale activists had to destroy the safe space to save it.
Orwellian double think is alive and well.
people misapplying orwellian terms is alive and well as well
 
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cbazler wrote:
All of the people I ever see on RSP complaining about "SJWs" and "PC bullshit" seem to be under the impression that claims of sexism or racism are completely unfounded in this tolerant modern age, and that any conversations held today about oppression, or privilege, are simply fabrications of oversensitive delicate types who don't really face real adversity in life.
All claims of sexism or racism are completely unfounded? Absolutely not. Who would assert such a thing? Certainly not I.

Any conversations about oppression or privilege are simply fabrications of oversensitive delicate types? Absolutely not. Who would assert such a thing? Certainly not I.

Now, are you willing to respond in kind and address the converse? Can any claim of sexism or racism or conversation about oppression or privilege be justifiably dismissed out of hand as meritless?
 
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cbazler wrote:
I think what gets lost in these battles about political correctness, free speech, and so-called "censorship of dissenting views," is the fact that people really do face real hatred, discrimination, and harassment in this country, and it really does affect their lives.

All of the people I ever see on RSP complaining about "SJWs" and "PC bullshit" seem to be under the impression that claims of sexism or racism are completely unfounded in this tolerant modern age, and that any conversations held today about oppression, or privilege, are simply fabrications of oversensitive delicate types who don't really face real adversity in life.

Yet just today, we literally witnessed a white supremacist come onto a thread in RSP, calling other users "niggers" and spouting xenophobic sentiments in graphic rape imagery. And what's worse, this was not the first time we have seen something like this happen here. This shit is not fake. Racism is alive and well today.

And you know what we did? We banned him. Did we "unfairly stifle his speech?" Were we "intolerant of an opposing viewpoints?" No. We banned the POS because we understand that some speech should not be tolerated, and that some people should not be asked to subject themselves to speech that perpetuates hatred, or that violates their sense of safety or their integrity or their human dignity. Sometimes this isn't just about free speech: it's about granting others freedom from harmful speech.

"...because we understand that some speech should not be tolerated...that violates their sense of safety or their integrity"

This and this alone would have shut down the civil rights movement before it was born. Issues of race and sexuality where predominantly treated as issues of public safety in the past and this was further used to attempt to silence them.

You actually make my point in a way with what you said. You claim that those defending free speech "forget" that racism is real, but then you go on to say that the fact that a real racist showed up and debated proves that point.

I did not agree with that poster, I made that pretty clear by examining his materials, down voting it and debunking factual myths. This gives anyone wanting to adopt his position a much better reason to avoid doing so, rather then simply having to contact him in private and getting only his version of it.

Your reasoning for my supposed motivations in defending freedom of speech amounts to me being ignorant of my opponent even existing.

Now the usual disclaimer, making actual threats against anyone (be they a woman, a pedophile, religious groups etc.) is a serious matter that needs not to be tolerated. Thankfully these things are illegal and the consequences of doing them serious.

Free speech needs to be for everyone, having your cake and eating it does not work. What the exact impact of speech can be is very much in the eye of the beholder. You also say you want to "grant others freedom from harmful speech".



In some countries that freedom exists, and its protection from.... you


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garygarison wrote:
My mere referencing this scandalizes a tiny, vocal, and emotionally unhinged portion of today's social progressives[/IMG]


FTFY.
It only feels like a large portion due to the number of conservatives who pounce on every occurrence and treat it like the end of days.
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Deleted112516 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
So you want... what? Liberals to double down on it? "Yeah, they were demanding action, people getting fired, apologies, silencing views they don't like. And they SHOULD!"
I want them to examine the claims made in articles. I want them to question generalizing stories to be the "sky is falling" memes that conservatards want them to be. As far as I know, there isn't a rash of profs losing their jobs due to crazy town libtard students wanting safe spaces and trigger warnings. Why humor this dialog?
The sky is not falling, but there are some things going on that a proponent of free speech might object to.

Germaine Greer (regarded as one of the major voices of the second-wave feminist movement) backed out of speaking at Cardiff University after efforts to ban her speaking there.

“Of her critics, she added: “They think that they are entitled to throw things at me and then they say that I am inciting violence against transexuals. I have never incited anyone to violence against anyone. I am just fed up with it all. It’s all just froth.”.” for the record she maintains that men can not become women through the process of surgery. She also makes claims that she does not mind treating them as such, but she refuses on budging on her position of them being de-facto women post op.

In this case, I will defend her viewpoint a little. If sexual identity is something we hold as very important, then it is valid that not everyone could deal with finding out post fact that they had intercourse with someone that used to belong to the same gender as them. I belief firmly that is a form of rape by fraud because the potential for psychological harm is there. She is not saying this, but I maintain that this is where the issue is not black and white since it involves the issues of consent and two people, defending one persons identity should not open anothers to assault.

Milo Yiannopoulos (Outspoken conservative, proud homosexual, religious catholic) was banned from speaking at Manchester SU and also faced recent attempts to ban him from speaking at Bristol University.

"A statement released by the Bristol University Feminist Society said: "As a committee, we do not support the University of Bristol Journalism Society's decision to host Milo Yiannapoulos.

"We feel that this violates the university's safe space policy, and we are not in favour of the kind of hate speech and vitriol that Yiannapoulos perpetuates.

"We believe that all societies should uphold the safety and security of all students at the university, and we feel that the Journalism Society has failed to take this essential factor into consideration.
" (source is the Bristol Post)

In this case the controversy centers around a blog post that he made.

http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/08/15/transgenderism-is-a-psych...

I think what he is saying is both wrong and controversial, but I find it deplorable to attempt to prevent him from public speaking in a place of education and debate because he holds this view. This is not hate speech as I would define it and this is clearly not the only issue he talks about (we are talking about Milo here, he will offend and challenge anyone on anything).

This is sort of the higher end of the problem, the ground level is a bit silly as well. My lesbian 14 year old kid faced a pile of abuse from one individual who objected to a friend of hers (who was kissing her on a picture) commenting "no homo" on it. The comment was their in joke (they are lesbians but not dating), and that person behaved like an outright bully over the matter (amounting to accusing them both of hate crimes).

The problem is that bullies (like trolls), will latch onto whatever target they think they are "safe" to attack. Everyone wants to fight bad guys, and most true human evil is committed when exactly that sentiment is applied when attacking the innocent.

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MWChapel wrote:

If you think it was so different today than say 20 years ago, then go watch the 1994 movie "PCU"...Same shit, different decade.
Great movie!

 
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I can't speak for the other left-leaning folks who liked this article, but, just for myself, I don't think it's about self-congratulation or get-off-my-lawn myopia. (Of course, it could be exactly that with my just missing it, as is generally the case when get-off-my-lawn myopia is happening.)

Where I come from is pretty consistent, I think, and in part it dovetails with my experience as a parent -- I have always found it not just helpful but crucial to think ahead of time about what is and is not acceptable behavior, to leave alone what is on the innocuous side of the line and to be consistent and firm in acting when the line is crossed.

For me, the cross over the line into devaluing and weakening the protections of free speech is not individually and intrinsically sky-falling material any more than a kid crossing a behavioral line is. In both cases, though, maintaining that line is important.

I also think that some of the most effective criticism comes from the same side (roughly speaking) rather than the opposite side. I think it is important to criticize from within.

I've always done this. When I was in college (early 90s), I advocated against the proposed exclusion of men from feminist groups. Then and in law school (mid 90s), I advocated against the MacKinnon/Dworkin school of feminism that conflated sexual expression with rape and oppression.

And, now, I think it is important to advocate against what I see as equivalent moves that endanger speech and other important freedoms.

I do think that finding common ground with one's typical opponents is a good thing. I wish people did it more, and I try to do it whenever I can.

But, at least for me, that isn't what this is about. I feel genuine concern that the protections that are key to important elements of freedom are being devalued (in this case, by the very people who most benefit from that freedom). I think that important lines are being crossed, and I think it is a good thing to speak out against it.
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Shushnik wrote:
It doesn't say, 'look how moderate we are' to me.

What it says is, 'all that stuff conservatives claimed about colleges being ideological indoctrination factories that I only half-heartedly headed, that was way more accurate and I shouldn't have dismissed it as much as I did.'
Nope. That's not at all true for me.
 
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garygarison wrote:
cbazler wrote:
All of the people I ever see on RSP complaining about "SJWs" and "PC bullshit" seem to be under the impression that claims of sexism or racism are completely unfounded in this tolerant modern age, and that any conversations held today about oppression, or privilege, are simply fabrications of oversensitive delicate types who don't really face real adversity in life.
All claims of sexism or racism are completely unfounded? Absolutely not. Who would assert such a thing? Certainly not I.

Any conversations about oppression or privilege are simply fabrications of oversensitive delicate types? Absolutely not. Who would assert such a thing? Certainly not I.

Now, are you willing to respond in kind and address the converse? Can any claim of sexism or racism or conversation about oppression or privilege be justifiably dismissed out of hand as meritless?
Of course there are claims of sexism or racism that I might personally find unwarranted. But that is kind of a problem, right? It boils down to, "It's offensive only if I also think it's offensive," which puts me in the position of being the only eligible party to make that decision.

Usually, when I hear someone say that something is offensive, even I don't initially agree with it, or see the offense, I listen. What about it is problematic to some people? Are there certain cultural assumptions I am making that might be blinding me to a subtext that others can see? I tend to treat it as a learning experience, knowing that as I too am not immune from racism or sexism or, yes, homophobia.

Now, I don't approve of knee-jerk calls for people's resignation, and I do think that the backlash can be way too severe (this Yale business being a good example). But it still doesn't invalidate the students' perspective. I think we need to listen to their point of view rather than ignore them and simply call them "oversensitive." And yes, I think people should think about how they might offend people by the things they say, and the costumes they wear.

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cbazler wrote:
garygarison wrote:
cbazler wrote:
All of the people I ever see on RSP complaining about "SJWs" and "PC bullshit" seem to be under the impression that claims of sexism or racism are completely unfounded in this tolerant modern age, and that any conversations held today about oppression, or privilege, are simply fabrications of oversensitive delicate types who don't really face real adversity in life.
All claims of sexism or racism are completely unfounded? Absolutely not. Who would assert such a thing? Certainly not I.

Any conversations about oppression or privilege are simply fabrications of oversensitive delicate types? Absolutely not. Who would assert such a thing? Certainly not I.

Now, are you willing to respond in kind and address the converse? Can any claim of sexism or racism or conversation about oppression or privilege be justifiably dismissed out of hand as meritless?
Of course there are claims of sexism or racism that I might personally find unwarranted. But that is kind of a problem, right? It boils down to, "It's offensive only if I also think it's offensive," which puts me in the position of being the only eligible party to make that decision.

Usually, when I hear someone say that something is offensive, even I don't initially agree with it, or see the offense, I listen. What about it is problematic to some people? Are there certain cultural assumptions I am making that might be blinding me to a subtext that others can see? I tend to treat it as a learning experience, knowing that as I too am not immune from racism or sexism or, yes, homophobia.

Now, I don't approve of knee-jerk calls for people's resignation, and I do think that the backlash can be way too severe (this Yale business being a good example). But it still doesn't invalidate the students' perspective. I think we need to listen to their point of view rather than ignore them and simply call them "oversensitive." And yes, I think people should think about how they might offend people by the things they say, and the costumes they wear.

Do you believe this insulates them from reality? I do. Because the reality is when they step off campus, there isn't going to be a designated "safe space" for them, except for their apartment. They are going to be forced to encounter rude comments and offensive incidents and thoughtless people, because that's the world. The world being what it is, it will probably happen quite frequently. And there isn't going to be some central body which controls who does or doesn't get admission onto the subway car on the Red Line like there is about who gets on a college campus.

Some other questions: Do you think this type of action prepares kids for the next phase of their life? Do you think that kids on college campus -should- be insulated from discovering how the world generally works? Do you think action like this prepares them to make the world a better place by doing more of the same on a larger scale, and how?
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Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
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SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
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I first saw the article when a friend of a friend posted a link on Facebook. I don't know the person, but from other postings I think he'd only classic as left leaning if you started from the position of Atilla the Hun, and I'm not sure even then. So contrast with the OP who indicated it was left leaning people posting it in approval.

And the reason I think is that I can't recall when I last read such a rambling, wordy, poorly constructed piece. I actually can't tell if I agree, disagree, or whatever with the author. It doesn't even indicate (unless I missed it later in the ramble) what sort of costumes (in the past) sparked problems. And more. Yes, it probably made the point that mountains were being made out of molehills. But only probably.

Given the facts (which I don't have) one could write a piece that actually explained the whole thing in half the length. Though it does look as if the email that caused the problem might also have been long, rambling, and unclear too. But again, not certainly.
 
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